Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP (Read 6975097 times)

Tasty · « **Reply #34380 on:** June 10, 2019, 08:59:03 AM »

Quote from: Cauliflower Of Love on June 09, 2019, 08:14:08 PM

she's a capitalist?

* Economic Patriot

benjipwns · « **Reply #34381 on:** June 10, 2019, 10:17:07 AM »

Quote

Top Democrats tell "Axios on HBO" they expect Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez may eventually primary one of the two New York senators — Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer in 2022, or Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand in 2024.

benjipwns · « **Reply #34382 on:** June 10, 2019, 10:19:25 AM »

speaking of Democrats and the Senate: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/447521-democrats-hope-some-presidential-candidates-drop-out-and-run-for-senate

Quote

Democrats facing a steep uphill climb to win back the Senate want Beto O’Rourke to reconsider his long-shot bid for president and take another look at running for the Senate in Texas, especially if his White House bid fails to pick up momentum.

They feel the same way about two other White House hopefuls who are polling at around 1 percent or lower: former Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper and Montana Gov. Steve Bullock.

...

Democratic senators won’t call out the low-polling presidential candidates by name in public, but they’re not shy about making the argument that some would do more for their party in Senate races than in the crowded presidential fight.

“The clock is running out for people who have not demonstrated any ability to mount a serious presidential bid to help make a real difference in their country by helping to turn the Senate,” said Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.), articulating a sentiment that other Senate Democrats expressed privately.

“It would be a shame if we elected a new president who faced the same enmity and obstruction in the Senate that Obama had to live through, all because a lot of candidates who had no shot wouldn’t run for winnable Senate seats,” he added.

...

Like Whitehouse, Senate Democratic Whip Dick Durbin (Ill.) said he also hopes that Democrats with long-shot presidential bids think more seriously about the Senate. But he warned they would have to be fully committed to win.

“We have a number of presidential aspirants who would make excellent senatorial candidates, but they first have to be committed to the race. I hope they’ll reach the point where it makes sense to them,” he said.

Durbin said “of course” there’s frustration among some of his colleagues that promising candidates have decided to run for president instead of the Senate.

...

A third Democratic senator, who requested anonymity to comment on internal caucus discussions, said, “There’s frustration among people who care about the majority.”

agrajag · « **Reply #34383 on:** June 10, 2019, 10:25:45 AM »

https://twitter.com/rcbregman/status/1137763534442500096

AOC bless

agrajag · « **Reply #34384 on:** June 10, 2019, 11:39:40 AM »

https://twitter.com/aseitzwald/status/1137782957811359744

Nintex · « **Reply #34385 on:** June 10, 2019, 12:25:38 PM »

Quote from: agrajag on June 10, 2019, 10:25:45 AM

https://twitter.com/rcbregman/status/1137763534442500096

AOC bless

listen to your dutch masters.

But Rutger. Trump is the craziest motherfucker around. So if change starts with crazy, my man you are fucked.

ToxicAdam · « **Reply #34386 on:** June 10, 2019, 01:17:33 PM »

Quote

The Mueller Report is not only so clear and definitive on crimes and obstruction committed by Trump, but does ALL of the legal and case work for congress already, with every argument for and against each charge with details information on precedents and case law for every one of them, every possible legal challenge that could come up, every outcome and possibility already laid out for them. Any Democrat (and really, any elected official of any party) that doesn't push for impeachment should 100% be voted out of office the next time they're seat is on the line, and in general the Democrat party is completely useless, pathetic, and enabling if they don't do this.

The US government is beyond repair if they let this shit slide for political reasons on either side. Genuinely fucking bonkers.

From a strategy standpoint it makes sense.

If you believe that Trump is a weak candidate in 2020, you don't want him going anywhere and you don't want to give his supporters any fire going into the election. These people (Dem leaders) remember what happened when Clinton was impeached, he became more popular than ever.

So, what is there to gain besides it being a political footnote?

Impeachment only makes sense if you believe that Trump is sure to win in 2020.

agrajag · « **Reply #34387 on:** June 10, 2019, 01:27:59 PM »

Quote from: Nintex on June 10, 2019, 12:25:38 PM

Quote from: agrajag on June 10, 2019, 10:25:45 AM
https://twitter.com/rcbregman/status/1137763534442500096

AOC bless
listen to your dutch masters.

But Rutger. Trump is the craziest motherfucker around. So if change starts with crazy, my man you are fucked.

Shut up you dumb bih, you're one of the morons with an irrational hatred for AOC, your Dutch lord just cucked you.

agrajag · « **Reply #34388 on:** June 10, 2019, 01:29:19 PM »

Quote from: ToxicAdam on June 10, 2019, 01:17:33 PM

Quote
The Mueller Report is not only so clear and definitive on crimes and obstruction committed by Trump, but does ALL of the legal and case work for congress already, with every argument for and against each charge with details information on precedents and case law for every one of them, every possible legal challenge that could come up, every outcome and possibility already laid out for them. Any Democrat (and really, any elected official of any party) that doesn't push for impeachment should 100% be voted out of office the next time they're seat is on the line, and in general the Democrat party is completely useless, pathetic, and enabling if they don't do this.

The US government is beyond repair if they let this shit slide for political reasons on either side. Genuinely fucking bonkers.

From a strategy standpoint it makes sense.

If you believe that Trump is a weak candidate in 2020, you don't want him going anywhere and you don't want to give his supporters any fire going into the election. These people (Dem leaders) remember what happened when Clinton was impeached, he became more popular than ever.

So, what is there to gain besides it being a political footnote?

Impeachment only makes sense if you believe that Trump is sure to win in 2020.

further permanent weakening of Congressional oversight.

Nintex · « **Reply #34389 on:** June 10, 2019, 01:33:48 PM »

There are many things that we miss out on if Trump is impeached.

However, the chances of accidently stumbling into nuclear war are significantly reduced even if Mike Pence takes over.

team filler · « **Reply #34390 on:** June 10, 2019, 02:50:59 PM »

tulsi on establishment politicians playing politics with impeachment "Fuck that shit"

https://youtu.be/ttQlm0O5ql0?t=1651

stro was in new york asking the tough questions

benjipwns · « **Reply #34391 on:** June 10, 2019, 03:09:38 PM »

Quote from: Stro on June 10, 2019, 02:58:35 PM

Why even pretend we have a real government if you're just going to let the president repeatedly break the law

That's how you know it's a real government.

ToxicAdam · « **Reply #34392 on:** June 10, 2019, 03:14:10 PM »

Stro, in a vacuum you're right of course. But you have to remember that the American public hates this government and has for 20+ years now. Public trust is nearly non-existent.

So, crimes like obstruction don't really move the needle for the average American because they already believe the average Congressperson is capable/guilty of far worse.

Impeachment proceedings are a circus. The media turns it into Congress v President and the people pick a side. Congress will always lose because people have hated them my entire life. Public sentiment matters too, because the people voting on this will have an election they have to run for soon. That's why so many Republicans crumbled during the Clinton impeachment.

https://www.people-press.org/2019/04/11/public-trust-in-government-1958-2019/

agrajag · « **Reply #34393 on:** June 10, 2019, 03:17:25 PM »

You take a completely debatable assumption that impeaching gives Republicans a political win as some self-evident fact. Meanwhile Nancy and co. are letting Trump walk all over her, but internet experts like you think she's playing 4 dimensional chess because she did a funny clap that one time. You're Kirblar.

agrajag · « **Reply #34394 on:** June 10, 2019, 03:20:53 PM »

Furthermore, impeachment need not be premised on obstruction. They can use the sum total of his transgressions to demonstrate that he is not fit for office. Everything needs to be out in the open, it needs to be dragged out, and if you think Trump wants that you are on crack.

https://twitter.com/RepMGS/status/1138112702931509248

ToxicAdam · « **Reply #34395 on:** June 10, 2019, 03:40:44 PM »

>impeaching gives Republicans a political win as some self-evident fact.

Even if it's only a 20-40 percent chance, why leave yourself open to needless risk?

Why risk it if you are going to 1) win the election in 2020 or 2) win more seats in congress to strengthen your impeachment push in a possible second term 3) potentially open up the Republican field in 2020 to a better candidate?

Assuming this process takes 5-7 months, you get rid of Trump for less than a year but his administration will still carry on his wishes. They don't go away also.

(Democrats faced a similar dilemma in 2006 when they won Congress and many members were pushing to impeach Bush. It was largely a waste and Pelosi recognized it as such.)

This isn't 4d chess, this is a simple risk/reward scenario and I don't think it's a particularly close choice.

agrajag · « **Reply #34396 on:** June 10, 2019, 03:43:07 PM »

that's cute that you think it's a given that Dems are winning in 2020. Also cute that you think there are more attractive candidates in the republican field for the Trump base. Remember the 2016 R primary? Pence?

agrajag · « **Reply #34397 on:** June 10, 2019, 03:43:48 PM »

Dude no one gives a puck about Pence. He's nobody without Trump.

agrajag · « **Reply #34398 on:** June 10, 2019, 03:49:50 PM »

Also, I don't think most people calling for impeachment are naive enough to think that it will lead to removal, so let's just drop that disingenuous aspect of the debate altogether. I am saying that it's 1) the constitutional duty of congress to provide oversight 2) it's a symbolic gesture that let's constituents know that at least one party is doing its job, part of which is to provide checks and balances to the executive branch 3) it lets the D base know that their reps haven't given up and rolled over 4) it is bad PR for Trump. Any time he's been involved in a long, drawn out scandal his numbers have gone down. It's just that he has an insane, rabid base that will stick by their man no matter what, but those aren't the people you're trying to sway.

ToxicAdam · « **Reply #34399 on:** June 10, 2019, 03:52:05 PM »

Nothing is a sure thing, but the odds of a Democrat winning in 2020 are far greater than the odds of impeaching Trump (or the process of it ruining his 2020 campaign).

My only hedge would be if Biden wins, then I think Trump probably has a better chance to win again.

If removal is unlikely then why not wait until 2021 and do it? There is no expiration on his obstruction.

agrajag · « **Reply #34400 on:** June 10, 2019, 03:54:41 PM »

If Biden wins the nomination, Dems are screwed. But I'll go even further, I might not even care that much if Trump wins if it's against biden. I will become the cynical 2016 Jimmy Dore voter.

Nola · « **Reply #34401 on:** June 10, 2019, 04:05:41 PM »

Quote from: shosta on June 10, 2019, 04:04:29 PM

I did, in fact, read the report the day it came out and finished it the following day. My point is that obstructing an investigation that doesn't reveal a crime is totally different from obstructing one that does, and that matters to many people.

Ok William Barr.

agrajag · « **Reply #34402 on:** June 10, 2019, 04:07:37 PM »

I would still vote for Biden, or Harris, or Gillibrant or whoever the blue nominee is. But excuse the fuck out of me if I feel a certain way about it. So I don't have to explain shit to your immigrant friends. Also, have you forgot about the mass deportations under the Obama admin, which Biden was a part of. You honestly think he's on the left of Obama on this issue?

agrajag · « **Reply #34403 on:** June 10, 2019, 04:12:04 PM »

Obstruct the investigation making it impossible to definitively prove there is an underlying crime. Claim obstruction charge is bunk if there is no underlying crime.

agrajag · « **Reply #34404 on:** June 10, 2019, 04:15:40 PM »

on a lighter note

https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1137112035307773952

agrajag · « **Reply #34405 on:** June 10, 2019, 04:30:33 PM »

QED nothing, you made a strawman that I was protest voting, you lyin' prick.

agrajag · « **Reply #34406 on:** June 10, 2019, 04:39:01 PM »

Nola · « **Reply #34407 on:** June 10, 2019, 04:43:51 PM »

Quote from: Stro on June 10, 2019, 04:09:01 PM

Quote from: Nola on June 10, 2019, 04:05:41 PM
Quote from: shosta on June 10, 2019, 04:04:29 PM
I did, in fact, read the report the day it came out and finished it the following day. My point is that obstructing an investigation that doesn't reveal a crime is totally different from obstructing one that does, and that matters to many people.

Ok William Barr.

And if he had read or listened to the Mueller Report, he would know that isn't the case at all. It literally does not matter if there is an underlying crime. There is no difference in obstruction with or without an underlying crime being obstructed.

Yeah, the point of obstruction is to.....obstruct. If you don't punish it on its own merits, you pervert the entire system.

But I guess his argument has as much to do with public perception, and to an extent, that's probably somewhat true. Having the full Nixon Tapes was what broke the dam, not all the obstruction leading up to it(though a point worth mentioning is that after a brief spike in 73, Nixon's approval continually eroded as the informal and formal impeachment inquiries ratcheted up).

I think what I take issue with is the whatabouting and this sticky assumption that a formal impeachment inquiry(like under Nixon) and winning 2020 are in critical tension with one another.

Great Rumbler · « **Reply #34408 on:** June 10, 2019, 04:47:52 PM »

Shosta and agra having the same person as their avatar makes things confusing, especially when they start arguing with each other.

agrajag · « **Reply #34409 on:** June 10, 2019, 04:49:26 PM »

heh Nixon's very refusal of subpoena to release the tapes was an article in impeachment hearings.

agrajag · « **Reply #34410 on:** June 10, 2019, 04:50:48 PM »

Quote from: Great Rumbler on June 10, 2019, 04:47:52 PM

Shosta and agra having the same person as their avatar makes things confusing, especially when they start arguing with each other.

I feel that our expressions tell a very different story.

james · « **Reply #34411 on:** June 10, 2019, 06:13:20 PM »

Democrats: A sophisticated international hacking ring + voter disenfranchisement gave the election to Trump

Democrats: The Trump administration is doing everything they can to let it happen again so they steal another victory

Also Democrats = Let's wait until the elections to see if the voters want impeachment or nah

agrajag · « **Reply #34412 on:** June 10, 2019, 06:14:28 PM »

In other news, NYT is ending political cartoons because Bibi got upset

james · « **Reply #34413 on:** June 10, 2019, 06:18:54 PM »

Quote from: Stro on June 10, 2019, 06:15:07 PM

Quote from: james on June 10, 2019, 06:13:20 PM
Democrats: A sophisticated international hacking ring + voter disenfranchisement gave the election to Trump

Democrats: The Trump administration is doing everything they can to let it happen again so they steal another victory

Also Democrats = Let's wait until the elections to see if the voters want impeachment or nah

This is not what they're arguing, but please proceed, governor.

Which part?

team filler · « **Reply #34414 on:** June 10, 2019, 06:20:08 PM »

Quote from: cosmicblizzard on June 10, 2019, 06:03:52 PM

Seriously, FUCK OFF with that comic!

Quote from: agrajag on June 10, 2019, 06:14:28 PM

In other news, NYT is ending political cartoons because Bibi got upset

Nintex · « **Reply #34415 on:** June 10, 2019, 06:25:25 PM »

The Democrats simply #trusttheplan

Which is fool proof. I mean, how can Biden lose an election to Trump. That is frankly impossible.
After all, the blue firewall, changing demographics and our poll which show a 99% win chance for Biden will keep any Republican out of the White House for decades or better yet, centuries to come.

james · « **Reply #34416 on:** June 10, 2019, 06:37:20 PM »

Quote from: Nintex on June 10, 2019, 06:25:25 PM

The Democrats simply #trusttheplan

Which is fool proof. I mean, how can Biden lose an election to Trump. That is frankly impossible.
After all, the blue firewall, changing demographics and our poll which show a 99% win chance for Biden will keep any Republican out of the White House for decades or better yet, centuries to come.

Dont forget that Pennsylvania is the W H I T E W H A L E

Nintex · « **Reply #34417 on:** June 10, 2019, 06:40:21 PM »

Quote from: james on June 10, 2019, 06:37:20 PM

Quote from: Nintex on June 10, 2019, 06:25:25 PM
The Democrats simply #trusttheplan

Which is fool proof. I mean, how can Biden lose an election to Trump. That is frankly impossible.
After all, the blue firewall, changing demographics and our poll which show a 99% win chance for Biden will keep any Republican out of the White House for decades or better yet, centuries to come.

Dont forget that Pennsylvania is the W H I T E W H A L E

I hear Texas is turning blue.