Author Topic: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ] jordan peterson Jordan Peterson JORDAN PETERSON  (Read 321654 times)

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Oblivion

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« Reply #900 on: April 26, 2018, 01:51:32 PM »


*In John Connor voice* : I think it's slowly becoming self-aware.

Mandark

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« Reply #901 on: April 26, 2018, 01:59:35 PM »
This isn't the first time he's said something like this.

Quote from: Jordan Peterson
You can be a non-believer in your surface rationality, but you can’t be a non-believer in your actions, you see, because Harris’ metaphysics is fundamentally Christian. So he acts out a Christian metaphysics, while at the same time saying ‘I don’t believe it’. Yes, you do, because you’re acting it out. You just say you don’t believe it, but he’s acting it out, e.g. he doesn’t rob banks, he doesn’t kill people, he doesn’t rape. This addressed in Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment.

HardcoreRetro

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« Reply #902 on: April 26, 2018, 02:01:27 PM »
What the hell is a Doestevsky?

etiolate

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« Reply #903 on: April 26, 2018, 02:02:49 PM »
What the hell is a Doestevsky?

doestevsky a russian female deer whose burden is heavy as sin

HardcoreRetro

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« Reply #904 on: April 26, 2018, 02:05:56 PM »
How does Peterson feel about Tostloy though?

Edit: Every time I read a Peterson thing Psycho Killer's lyrics come to mind.

"You start a conversation, you can't even finish it. You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything"
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 02:11:56 PM by HardcoreRetro »

agrajag

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« Reply #905 on: April 26, 2018, 03:54:21 PM »
This isn't the first time he's said something like this.

Quote from: Jordan Peterson
You can be a non-believer in your surface rationality, but you can’t be a non-believer in your actions, you see, because Harris’ metaphysics is fundamentally Christian. So he acts out a Christian metaphysics, while at the same time saying ‘I don’t believe it’. Yes, you do, because you’re acting it out. You just say you don’t believe it, but he’s acting it out, e.g. he doesn’t rob banks, he doesn’t kill people, he doesn’t rape. This addressed in Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment.

what a dumb fuck.

etiolate

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« Reply #906 on: April 26, 2018, 04:05:46 PM »
You would think Peterson himself would spend a few seconds to trying to clarify that at some point throughout the debate, if that were the case.

He seemed to realize that at a certain point in the conversation that he upset Dillahunty and was trying to be less verbose*.




* Which he can't do so he just picks less topics to interject on.

Momo

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« Reply #907 on: April 27, 2018, 11:17:19 AM »


This like/dislike ratio, Abby still rustling people fiercely.

etiolate

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« Reply #908 on: April 27, 2018, 12:54:29 PM »
Abby pushes propaganda. I turned that one off after lke the 6th time she made a big claim, Joe asked for verification and she had to back off.

I'm not  for America's interference overseas or its geopolitical shenannigans, but you don't fight that by raving about the latest Potemkin village you saw in some hellhole country.

Crash Dummy

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« Reply #909 on: April 27, 2018, 01:33:47 PM »
This isn't the first time he's said something like this.

Quote from: Jordan Peterson
You can be a non-believer in your surface rationality, but you can’t be a non-believer in your actions, you see, because Harris’ metaphysics is fundamentally Christian. So he acts out a Christian metaphysics, while at the same time saying ‘I don’t believe it’. Yes, you do, because you’re acting it out. You just say you don’t believe it, but he’s acting it out, e.g. he doesn’t rob banks, he doesn’t kill people, he doesn’t rape. This addressed in Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment.

i haven't watched the debate but is he basically using many words to essentially say what zizek says about ideology (it exists and works regardless of one believing and having faith in it)? and also what's his rationale for attributing those metaphysics to christianity specifically? i'm sure most religions preach not to rob, kill and rape

etiolate

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« Reply #910 on: April 27, 2018, 02:35:15 PM »
I'm not sure its to Christianity alone. I think he sees the best wrangling of the ideas in Christianity, but he references other religions. He brings up the Tao in the discussion. 

The Dillahunty/Peterson discussion needed to answer the question of whether a transcendental being (such as God) is required for a proper morality.

Nola

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« Reply #911 on: April 27, 2018, 03:17:37 PM »
I'm not sure its to Christianity alone. I think he sees the best wrangling of the ideas in Christianity, but he references other religions. He brings up the Tao in the discussion. 

The Dillahunty/Peterson discussion needed to answer the question of whether a transcendental being (such as God) is required for a proper morality.

It's not.




etiolate

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« Reply #912 on: April 27, 2018, 04:45:48 PM »
Well she did a YT piece on how the press is more free in Venezuela than reported in the west... while working for a state sponsored network.




etiolate

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« Reply #913 on: April 27, 2018, 05:03:26 PM »
You asked about propaganda and I gave you her doing propaganda.

agrajag

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« Reply #914 on: April 27, 2018, 06:49:01 PM »
I'm not sure its to Christianity alone. I think he sees the best wrangling of the ideas in Christianity, but he references other religions. He brings up the Tao in the discussion. 

The Dillahunty/Peterson discussion needed to answer the question of whether a transcendental being (such as God) is required for a proper morality.

(Narrator) It's not.

Ftfy

Momo

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« Reply #915 on: April 27, 2018, 07:42:06 PM »
The way I understand it Abby doesnt work for any state sponsored network, she produces content herself for her own production company and then sells it on to several state networks and whomever would have it, and yes i understand the fact that these are her customers typically is an argument that she has to pursue certain angles, but she's pretty consistent with the stuff she chooses to pursue. Not going to claim she doesn't invent a lot of really bad intentions when there is typically easier explanations or that she is exactly fair and unbiased. That she and Sam Harris are both friends with Joe Rogan makes me tingle with delight that the singularity might oneday occur where they are both on the same podcast, Joe was angling for it last time Abby was on iirc.

benjipwns

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« Reply #916 on: April 28, 2018, 12:51:34 AM »
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/04/stop-talking-about-race-and-iq-take-it-from-someone-who-did.html
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The race-and-IQ debate is back. The latest round started a few weeks ago when Harvard geneticist David Reich wrote a New York Times op-ed in defense of race as a biological fact. The piece resurfaced Sam Harris’ year-old Waking Up podcast interview with Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve, and launched a Twitter debate between Harris and Vox’s Ezra Klein. Klein then responded to Harris and Reich in Vox, Harris fired back, and Andrew Sullivan went after Klein. Two weeks ago, Klein and Harris released a two-hour podcast in which they fruitlessly continued their dispute.

https://niskanencenter.org/blog/there-is-no-campus-free-speech-crisis-a-close-look-at-the-evidence/
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The campus free speech debate is heating up. Last month I made the case (first in a Twitter thread and then again at the Washington Post’s The Monkey Cage) that there is no campus free speech crisis. Around the same time, similar arguments were made by Matt Yglesias (at Vox), Aaron Hanlon (at NBC), and Mari Uyehara (at GQ). The gist of our collective argument was that young people and university students are generally supportive of free speech, that university enrollment is associated with an increase in tolerance for offensive speech, and that a small number of anecdotes have been permitted to set the terms of public debate.

Unsurprisingly, these debunkings have attracted some debunkings of their own. The most detailed of these was a pair of posts by Sean Stevens and Jonathan Haidt at the Heterodox Academy. In addition to restating the case for why the campus free speech crisis is real, Stevens and Haidt make a number of additional claims for why alarm is warranted. I am grateful for their critique, but I am not persuaded.

etiolate

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« Reply #917 on: April 28, 2018, 03:53:06 PM »
Oh were those the metrics Mandark wanted? I see now.

Mandark

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« Reply #918 on: April 28, 2018, 04:05:58 PM »
Again, your own source said university speech codes have been declining steadily for a decade. Defining what constitutes a "crisis" is subjective but that's surely not evidence of it. Not sure why you're fired up on this point.

etiolate

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« Reply #919 on: April 28, 2018, 04:41:54 PM »
Fired up? I am laughing. You're such a obvious bullshitter. You asked a question of which you had no intent to hear the answer. Just to ask the question is to send a message that is dishonest.

You stick your head in the sand. You didn't want metrics.  You got metrics and selectively heard them. You got explanations you couldn't respond to in any way.

You're hilarious.

Oblivion

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« Reply #920 on: April 29, 2018, 04:01:42 PM »
This was a great week for the battle for the right to FREE SPEECH.

RedState fired every single one of their anti-Trump columnists.

The entire right-wing is freaking out about Michelle Wolf being too mean to Sarah Huckabee Sanders and the Trump admin.

Once again, proving that the "fuck your feelings" crowd is (and always has been) full of shit.

etiolate

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« Reply #921 on: April 29, 2018, 04:09:29 PM »
This isn't a thread about political talking heads.

Oblivion

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« Reply #922 on: April 29, 2018, 04:36:25 PM »
It's directly related to the discussion on free speech that was going on.

Nola

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« Reply #923 on: April 29, 2018, 04:54:13 PM »
This was a great week for the battle for the right to FREE SPEECH.

RedState fired every single one of their anti-Trump columnists.

The entire right-wing is freaking out about Michelle Wolf being too mean to Sarah Huckabee Sanders and the Trump admin.

Once again, proving that the "fuck your feelings" crowd is (and always has been) full of shit.

Like etiolate, they are just mad at where the inflection points shift to, not really the idea of free speech itself.

If that were the case, like my bloviated post above showed, the rational place to put most of the pearl clutching is on the right, and toward older generations. Which by a notable margin control larger levers of power, are far more in favor of both a broader range of speech restrictions and have a much deeper support base for it within their ranks.

But here we are talking about a diminishing trend on college campuses and etiolate getting all uppity if people deviate too much away from what he wants people to focus on...

benjipwns

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« Reply #924 on: April 29, 2018, 05:09:42 PM »
To be honest, the most shocking and frightening thing about the RedState story is that:
1. They were paying bloggers enough that firing them would save money.
b. That they had bloggers people would notice if they were fired.
iii. RedState has non-technical employees in general, since it looks like an automatically generated blog bumping platform.
IIII. That it's not having Raven create a Battle Royale mode to compensate.

benjipwns

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« Reply #925 on: April 29, 2018, 05:16:15 PM »
one of the top stories on RedState:
Quote
SHOCK. James Clapper Lied To Congress About Discussing The Trump Dossier With Jake Tapper

i guess my version of the headline wouldn't generate the clicks and they'd fire me too
Quote
SHOCK: Jerk who committed perjury in Congress and completely got away with it, probably did so again; now forced to work at CNN

Oblivion

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« Reply #926 on: April 29, 2018, 06:01:38 PM »
To be honest, the most shocking and frightening thing about the RedState story is that:
1. They were paying bloggers enough that firing them would save money.
b. That they had bloggers people would notice if they were fired.
iii. RedState has non-technical employees in general, since it looks like an automatically generated blog bumping platform.
IIII. That it's not having Raven create a Battle Royale mode to compensate.

What's also surprising is that Erick Son of Erick was a never-Trumper wasn't he?

benjipwns

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« Reply #927 on: April 29, 2018, 06:10:03 PM »
He sold RedState to Salem in 2014 in the first place to focus on his radio show and CNN full time. (Also presumably to make money before its value dropped more.)

The Resurgent/The Maven is his now website, with hard hitting never-Trump content: https://www.themaven.net/theresurgent/erick-erickson/because-they-re-okay-with-killing-kids-among-other-things-_5xBrZrrxEubwlhGrZAkzg/?full=1
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Max Boot can't figure out why Republicans who claim to be upset by Donald Trump won't do what he sees as the only reasonable thing and vote Democrat.

I did not vote for Donald Trump. There are plenty of his policies I have been pleasantly surprised by. But I hold to the old fashioned view that character matters and find his character to be low. All that said, I do admit he has made great appointments and has advanced some good policies both in foreign relations and in domestic policy.

He still concerns me though and I too wish the GOP would be more forceful against him instead of less deferential. I still think Congress needs to use its checks and balances against him more and take the lead on legislating when he won't.

I could never vote for Democrats though. As much as I think the GOP has gone insane, I think the Democratic Party has embraced policies I find as morally repugnant as Trump's behavior. And his behavior is just on him. The Democrats not only want to advance morally repugnant policies, but not allow any of us to opt out of them.

It is easy for Max Boot to vote Democrat if you aren't a social conservative or Christian. But I think life matters and the Democrats' embrace of killing children, hiding euphemistically behind the term "abortion," is actually a moral evil. One of my concerns with President Trump is that I remain skeptical of his commitment to the culture of life. I'm sure not going to embrace a party that has handed itself over to a government subsidized death cult called Planned Parenthood.

Likewise, I think homosexuality is a sin and gay marriage is an affront to God. I'm not going to support a party that wants to shut down small businesses run by Christians who refuse to go along with the the left's view on human sexuality.

And then there's transgenderism. A transgender person is mentally ill and the left would prefer we treat the transgender person as normal instead of trying to get them help.

On all these issues, the Democratic Party has been hijacked by those who'd treat deviancy as normal and normalcy as deviant. I think these moral issues directly relate to a collapse of our culture. So while I have no affection for a President who is a moral cretin, I'm certainly not going to cast my lot with a party that celebrations moral abominations and thinks the government should subsidize them.

Trump may be an authoritarian, but the Democrats are the ones trying to force nuns to pay for killing kids and force small businesses out of business for not wanting to support same-sex weddings.

Oblivion

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« Reply #928 on: April 29, 2018, 06:21:39 PM »
He sold RedState to Salem in 2014 in the first place to focus on his radio show and CNN full time. (Also presumably to make money before its value dropped more.)

Ah okay, that explains it.

benjipwns

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« Reply #929 on: April 29, 2018, 11:54:18 PM »
sorry guys for blocking your detailed responses to the idiots who don't understand the discussions being truly had here, i just wanted to give Oblivion some details about the absurdity of RedState since he brought it up, i didn't want to distract from the obliteration of cowardly Mandark's lack of data (though what else do you expect from him? and that's not even assuming he's not being distracted by controlling the weather from his (((gated community))) against the will of the people)

as to the other sub topic, i try to keep my links and videos to the topics previously raised in this thread, though i admit some of the Peterson stuff is just fascination with the man and his weird continued rising star of fame off of what is not just bad common sense for those he's speaking to, but like, bad versions of old common sense... plus as jake and others have pointed out here, and many elsewhere, and i just have had a gut reaction to from his first surfacing, he doesn't even seem good at his professed job, let alone his expansion into undergrad philosophy which seems to have not even skimmed wikipedia first

also, for every new indisputable data point he introduces like petting cats and not hating your piece of shit children, he has some strange quirk like the lobster theory or his "subconscious" desire to assault small children for doing what he advocates

though sometimes, like the Fox and Friends video, I posted it more because of Steve Doocy's complete disinterest in him specifically and wanting to blast through as many hot takes on hot button topics as possible in five minutes with [insert guest] :lol

that said, i would agree with etoliate that the RedState and Michelle Wolf situations are quantitatively different from what he's been trying to discuss regarding free speech in the university...although perhaps aspects of those discussions may find more in common with his own comments re: Abby Martin's propaganda for the imperialist United States government by her betraying and then tarring the 9/11 truth movement (not to mention her propagandizing for the Trump Campaign/Administration by supporting Jill Stein and working for Vladimir Putin)

Nola

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« Reply #930 on: April 30, 2018, 04:49:38 AM »
I’d agree it is quantitatively different. For different reasons...

In that the Michelle Wolf moment speaks to an actual broad free speech issue being propagated by people with actual power and actual meaningful notches on their belt(like using their regulatory power to help proliferate the expansion of Sinclair media), with a much larger base of support for their actions.

The other is a quantitatively smaller and niche issue distorted and inflated by people often obsessed with self-victimizing forms of white male identity politics. And from that warped vantage point the greatest substantive metric one of them points to is a comparatively minor issue that happens to be on the decline and the larger substance of such policies has actually punished left-leaning speech at a higher clip.

benjipwns

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« Reply #931 on: April 30, 2018, 05:28:14 AM »
Not to mention, if unhinged sexist lunatic Michelle Wolf simply admitted she had been hacked and apologized for the fact that some people could believe she might say those hateful things that hackers placed in her comments that she said, the corporate media would rush to defend her from Bernie Sanders' supporters.

No one will defend inconvenient scientists like Charles Murray and Sam Harris from data-less attacks and sedition charges by vile (((cowards))) now that Vox has sent out the marching orders to silence them by any means necessary.

team filler

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« Reply #932 on: April 30, 2018, 05:36:00 AM »
leave (((mandark))) out of this  8)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 05:50:17 AM by filler »
*****

benjipwns

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« Reply #933 on: April 30, 2018, 05:38:09 AM »
Mandark is the personification of the Cult of the post-modern Other. :bolo


curly

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etiolate

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« Reply #936 on: April 30, 2018, 08:54:33 PM »
Yeah that's too much influence.

etiolate

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« Reply #937 on: May 01, 2018, 04:39:38 PM »
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a19834137/jordan-peterson-interview/

Long piece that's a nice counter to all the smear peaces.

Oblivion

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« Reply #938 on: May 01, 2018, 09:37:58 PM »
I like how one of the few ways to make Peterson look good is to literally ignore all the shit he is actually criticized for.

seagrams hotsauce

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« Reply #939 on: May 01, 2018, 09:49:54 PM »

benjipwns

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« Reply #940 on: May 01, 2018, 11:33:28 PM »
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a19834137/jordan-peterson-interview/

Long piece that's a nice counter to all the smear peaces.
Quote
Viewed another way, Peterson’s intellectual project is exceedingly immodest, and can be stated in a sentence: He aims at nothing short of a refounding of Western civilization, to provide a rational justification for why the materialists of the digital age should root themselves in the soil of Christian ethics despite having long ago lost the capacity for faith.
oh, that's all?

Momo

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« Reply #941 on: May 02, 2018, 12:43:22 AM »
Criticism = slanderous propaganda hit pieces

Praise = well written articles
This is dumb, he can actually be slandered (as he is) and be full of shit. The thing that keeps feeding Peterson are idiots like the woman trying to catch him on TV and people writing fake news articles about him. The guy is out there telling bible stories, I cannot impress on you enough how disappointed I am when people invent things to slander him on instead of laughing at his fucking bible stories.

curly

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« Reply #942 on: May 02, 2018, 01:42:15 AM »
More evidence on the attack of free speech on college campuses

suspect we've been browsing the same subreddits  :doge

how do you guys deal with the constant tankie bickering

you think it has no effect but then you find yourself "well actually..."ing the Holodomor


benjipwns

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« Reply #944 on: May 02, 2018, 02:24:34 AM »
A FILM OF A TALK



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From coast to coast, people have been out on campuses, gaining some experience and making beginning headway in the efforts to take the film of BA’s talk THE TRUMP/PENCE REGIME MUST GO! In The Name of Humanity, We REFUSE To Accept a Fascist America. A Better World IS Possible to campuses. Below is some correspondence on these experiences. New reports are coming in, and we will continue to post them on this page.

Right now, before the spring semester ends at many schools, is a critical time to step up the work to impact campuses with this film. “Take BA to Campus Week” begins April 30 (though in some instances it started a week earlier or will start a week later). We need to come out of this period with a deeper understanding of the mood of the students, a real presence on some critical campuses and activated cores of people who are into this film and want to see it go further, as well as people who are getting into BA and wrangling in a more overall way with the new communism. And we need growing Revolution Clubs.

There are different strengths and weaknesses to the efforts described in the correspondences below, and different things to learn from each. None of these should be seen as THE answer; all of them are actually parts of an ensemble of what revolutionary political work on campus should look like (an ensemble that would also include things like programs on the Constitution for the New Socialist Republic in North America, “HOW WE CAN WIN—How We Can Really Make Revolution”; ongoing study groups on THE NEW COMMUNISM by Bob Avakian; bringing people from those who catch the hardest hell onto the campuses while bringing students into the battles and even just the lives of the communities off-campus; broad distribution of Science and Revolution by Ardea Skybreak; and other things).



 :rejoice :rejoice :rejoice :rejoice

Oblivion

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« Reply #945 on: May 02, 2018, 05:14:17 AM »
Criticism = slanderous propaganda hit pieces

Praise = well written articles
This is dumb, he can actually be slandered (as he is) and be full of shit. The thing that keeps feeding Peterson are idiots like the woman trying to catch him on TV and people writing fake news articles about him. The guy is out there telling bible stories, I cannot impress on you enough how disappointed I am when people invent things to slander him on instead of laughing at his fucking bible stories.

What is he getting unfairly slandered about? The Cathy Newman thing is the closest thing I can think of, and that wasn't a case of slander so much as her just being hilariously incompetent.

benjipwns

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« Reply #946 on: May 02, 2018, 06:50:53 AM »
to make up for the BA spam, here's some moving (or goofy or amusing or interesting or new) sections of the Esquire piece, which actually is a fairly decent primer for people wondering who the hell this guy is/why is he popular/etc. and it doesn't really "push back against smears" as much as it tries to answer that question of "why him?" by asking his fans/friends/etc. and off-hand referring to his backlash, the article isn't written to present a definitive take on Peterson as much as pursue that question, it even really barely touches on both his arguments and events like the BBC interview other than how he and his fans relate to them

the author does seem to be quite favorable to Peterson though I think his approach is a more appropriate one than actually attempting to defend him or boost him, his positive view seems to be that Peterson is helping people and that's more important than the rest of everything like the culture warrioring

it's reminding me of something like an overly long (though it is from a print magazine article) text version of that video about the Juggalo's and how they aren't a gang or terrorists just kinda offset people who bond through some rather interesting "leaders" I posted once and yes am going to search for to put in a spoiler tag at the bottom of this post because it warms my heart especially the part you already know i'm going to quote
Quote
For a moment, he resists, falling silent and still. He looks stricken. “This always breaks me up.” The tension gathers in his weather-beaten face. He flushes. The effort to hold back tears then shifts to the effort to expel them. They flow freely. The cathartic release of emotion sends a subtle tremor through his rather emaciated body. He recovers his speech. “I don’t tell people, ‘You’re okay the way that you are.’ That’s not the right story. The right story is ‘You’re way less than you could be.’”
...
In these moments, Peterson is filled with frustration that so many need his message, for want of what had once been common wisdom. At the refusal to address men in the language that summons them to embrace their better instincts. (Yes, Peterson is one of those problematic figures who believe that men have a nature that is best appealed to in ways consistent with that nature.) Why has no one ever set these young men straight before? Where were their fathers? Where were their teachers? Why have they left it up to him, a YouTube personality, to roust them from their hiding places and send them out into the world?

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I met Peterson in Los Angeles on a cloudless January afternoon, accompanied by his wife of twenty-eight years, Tammy, who had quit her job as a massage therapist in 2017 to help manage her husband’s affairs. There was something faintly comic about seeing this austere, steely-haired, admonitory figure from the frozen north at the wheel of a white Miata convertible in the southern-California sun. We were on our way to the home studio of the YouTube broadcaster Dave Rubin, a former reporter for the progressive Internet news show The Young Turks and now the host of the nonpartisan Rubin Report, on which Peterson was scheduled to be interviewed alongside the conservative pundit Ben Shapiro.

We pulled up to a pleasant white suburban house and rang the bell. Rubin came to greet us. “Every time I turn my head, you’re there!”
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Tammy met Peterson in 1969, when she was eight years old and he was seven. They lived across the street from each other in a small town in northern Alberta.  ...

Peterson would leave for college at the age of seventeen standing five foot seven inches tall, and return home a year later standing six foot two.

“I don’t know that he was celibate. . . .” Tammy said. “But he was always the sort that if he was going to sleep with a woman, he was going to marry her.”

I asked if she had known other guys like that.

“He was the only one.”

Peterson’s father was a nonbeliever, and his mother was a practicing Protestant. He attended church as a young boy, until he started trying to debate the priest over doctrinal contradictions.
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The local librarian, who was married to the head of the NDP, Canada’s social-democratic party, identified Peterson as a young man of promise and gave him a schooling in the great books. He spent his youth as a committed socialist before growing disillusioned with the character of his fellow travelers, whom he came to regard as motivated by resentment. At the same time, he met some conservative small-business owners who earned his grudging admiration. “It produced a fair bit of cognitive dissonance for me,” he says. “Because ostensibly, I didn’t admire the conservative ethos. But I certainly admired the people.”

By thirteen, Peterson had become “very tangled up and obsessive about ideas,” and haunted by the totalitarian atrocities of the twentieth century. For years, he was plagued by vivid nightmares of a nuclear holocaust.

At McGill, Peterson says, “I split myself into two.” By day, he was a conventional graduate student researching the neurology of alcoholism. By night, he was working on a book called Maps of Meaning, an attempt to reconcile the writings of Jung with the latest neuroscience and evolutionary biology. “I wasn’t trying to write an academic book,” Peterson says. “I was trying to solve a problem: Confronted with the opportunity to become an Auschwitz guard, how can you protect yourself against saying yes? Which was the fundamental question of the twentieth century.”

I noted that while we still read the canonical thinkers who presumed to address the big questions, nobody attempted to write in such a mode anymore. “People told me that the time for the great theories in psychology is over,” he said. “I said, ‘It might be over for you, but it’s not over for me.’ ”
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Then, in September of that year, Peterson posted a video stating his opposition to C-16, a Canadian bill that sought to make gender identity and expression protected categories. He argued that the law might compel people to adopt a panoply of gender-neutral pronouns, something he declared he would not do. He judged these pronouns—zie, and zir, and they, to name three of the more than seventy and growing such terms—to be the invention of “postmodern neo-Marxists” seeking to use state power to decree that gender differences were not biologically based but rather social constructions that could be made or unmade at will.
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In Peterson’s telling, delivered with the flair for drama that made him a star—his reedy voice at times hesitant then suddenly propelled by bursts of moral passion—the anodyne language of “diversity, equity, and inclusion” used to justify the new law was, in fact, a Trojan horse hiding an army of the radical left seeking yet another unattainable utopia. The [Joe Rogan] interview established the template through which the public would come to regard him, by turns, as a hero of resistance to an encroaching assault on civil liberties, or an absurd Don Quixote waging war against a figment of his own imagination; a redemptive and transformative thinker, or the most problematic mansplainer of all time.
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Many of these initial supporters were drawn from the male-dominated message boards of 4chan and Reddit, where a traffic in affectionate Jordan Peterson–themed memes instantly came into existence. Peterson’s odd combination of midcentury rural slang and existential exhortations spawned viral in-jokes: “Get in, Bucko. We’re rescuing your father from the Underworld,” read one. His lectures were dubbed onto videos of Kermit the Frog, a play on his somewhat Muppetlike voice.

Peterson’s fame on these subversive platforms is often used to paint him in ominous tones. “I have something in common with Nazis,” he told me, “in that I am opposed to the radical left. And when you oppose the radical left, you end up being a part of a much larger group that includes Nazis in it.” But his refusal of the consolations of group identity also puts him at odds with the alt-right. “The alt-righters would say—and they’ve said this to me directly—‘Peterson, you’re wrong. Identity politics is correct. We just have to play to win.’ I think that’s a reprehensible attitude. But I understand exactly why you would come to that conclusion.

“What I’m saying with my YouTube videos is ‘Okay, there’s a different way of playing the whole game. Forget about the bloody group-identity framework and concentrate on what you can do as an individual.’ ”

Some see the clips of Peterson’s speeches, excerpted and circulated online with fan titles such as “Jordan Peterson Debunks the Myth of White Privilege,” as a gateway drug to the sprawling red-pilled netherworld of men’s-rights activism, scientific racism, and revanchist white ethnonationalism. But Peterson sees himself as a kind of Catcher in the Rye, rescuing alienated young men from such dangerous temptations.
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Peterson often indulges a fatalistic resignation that someday, inevitably, he will be taken down for good. “The overwhelming likelihood, as far as I’m concerned, is that this will go terribly wrong,” he told a CBC newscaster, looking beleaguered, just a few days before I met him in Los Angeles.
...
“I’m surfing a one-hundred-foot wave,” he told the newscaster. “And generally what happens if you do that is that you drown.”
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Peterson, who suffers from an autoimmune disorder that affects his health, energy, and mood, has adopted his daughter Mikhaila’s diet of mostly red meat and greens, from which nearly all gluten and carbohydrates have been restricted.
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He ended the conversation expressing his intent to step back from the precipice of confrontation. “I’m trying to modify my Twitter approach,” he said.
...
Pankaj Mishra published a piece on the website of The New York Review of Books calling Peterson a symptom of the “intellectual and moral breakdown” that leads to fascism. The piece included a passing reference to Peterson’s “claim” of having been inducted into a Native Canadian tribe as an instance of “eggheads pretentiously . . . romancing the noble savage.” Peterson responded on Twitter by calling Mishra a “sanctimonious prick,” adding, “If you were in my room at the moment, I’d slap you happily.”
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He had met with Peter Thiel and Marc Andreessen to discuss an unspecified future venture. Both of those billionaires have for years called for the disruption of higher education, and Peterson has spoken of his desire to create an online university that will offer accreditation in the humanities at a tenth of the prevailing cost.
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I asked which aspect of Peterson’s messages resonated most strongly with him. “He’s getting people to be more responsible for their lives. He’s talking to them on the individual level. And even though he doesn’t identify as a Christian, he is very pastoral in a way that can be inspiring. It’s hard to discredit someone when they’re actually making individual lives better.” That was the simplest of all the explanations I had heard for Peterson’s continuing success in the face of ongoing efforts to expel him from polite society. I thought back to something his friend Wodek Szemberg, who produced the Maps of Meaning miniseries, had told me in a coffeehouse in Toronto.

Peterson would sometimes forward Szemberg emails he had received from viewers of the series. “A young man from Italy wrote in, saying, ‘I was about to commit suicide. I heard your lecture. And I’m going to live.’ The ability that [Peterson] has to speak to those who feel themselves at the end of the line, and to tell them: ‘There is a way for you to regroup and to rethink yourself and be productive and live a good life.’ That’s real. That’s not his imagination. The response that he gets proves how important it is for there to be someone who is believable when he says, ‘You can do it.’”
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Szemberg spoke of his own frustration with the sort of people Peterson has allowed himself to be associated with in public. “He doesn’t get it. In some sense, he doesn’t want to get it.” According to Szemberg, it was only after Peterson was scheduled to appear with Faith Goldy, then of Rebel Media, an online outlet that has been friendly to the alt-right, that Peterson finally reached the conclusion that “not everyone who wants to be your friend can be your friend.”
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[friend and a psychology professor at the University of Toronto named William] Cunningham described feeling nervous before attending one of his lectures. “I was expecting to be surrounded by fascist skinheads. And there are, like, nuns in the audience, and the audience is totally diverse, and it’s this beautiful discussion about the nature of myth for creating social reality. And I’m like, Yeah, I love this stuff! And the next day he starts tweeting again, and I’m like, Noooooo, not this again!” There was a moment soon after the Cathy Newman interview when Peterson received positive coverage from New York Times columnist David Brooks and The Atlantic. “I went to Jordan and told him, ‘You have a chance now to reframe your image, and you probably won’t get a second chance,’ ” Cunningham said. “ ‘Because if Twitter Jordan comes back out, that’s probably going to be it—forever.’”
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The young men who love Jordan Peterson love him for all the reasons that the smart set despises him. He gives them something the culture—sometimes it seems this way—wants to deny them. A sense of purpose in a world that increasingly defines their natural predispositions—for risk, adventure, physical challenge, unbridled competition—as maladaptive to the pacified, androgynous ideals of a bureaucratized, post-feminist world. Increasingly one hears that the problem menacing the world today is not the excesses of masculinity, but masculinity itself. That masculinity itself must—and can—be eradicated.
...
He argues in 12 Rules that “if men are pushed too hard to feminize, they will become more and more interested in harsh, fascist political ideology.” He notes that “Fight Club, perhaps the most fascist popular film made in recent years by Hollywood, provides a perfect example of this inevitable attraction,” as do “the populist groundswell of support for Donald Trump in the U. S. and the rise of far-right political parties even in such moderate and liberal places as Holland, Sweden, and Norway.”
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I watched several hundred people trade a few words with Peterson, some of them bearing gifts. “You are omnipresent in our life,” said the female half of one married couple.

“Thank you for helping me to become a less agreeable person,” said one Asian woman.

“You’ve helped me to grow up,” said a young man.

The ratio of those expressing gratitude for the positive effect Peterson had had on their personal lives to those wanting to talk about the culture wars was roughly twenty to one, a more or less perfect inversion of the impression given by much of the media.

I spoke to a Hispanic man named Joseph. “I was smoking too much weed. I was drinking too much. I hadn’t talked to my family in years. I didn’t think I needed anyone. Now I know that I do,” he said, wiping away tears.

A twenty-six-year-old guy named Jordan received Peterson’s lectures from his sister and his mother. His girlfriend Breanna described the change in his energy and motivation since he discovered Peterson three months before. “We started talking about marriage,” she said.

I asked if Jordan had tried other self-help programs or books. “Yeah, but none has ever made a difference.” I noted that Peterson’s message is a dark one. “That’s why I like it. When he says, ‘Life is suffering,’ that resonates very deeply. You can tell he’s not bullshitting us.”

A young woman I met named Faith was inspired to break up with her boyfriend. “I heard what he was saying about weak men and how women can be drawn into those relationships to—I feel bad saying this, but it’s true—to dominate them. My boyfriend didn’t want responsibility for his life or our relationship. Dr. Peterson helped me to accept that it would be a disservice to myself—and to him—to stay with him.”

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spoiler (click to show/hide)
IF YOU DON'T "WHOOP WHOOP" ME BACK YOU'RE NO LONGER FRESH, YOU'RE STALE. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FRESH AND STALE IS COMMON SENSE.
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etiolate

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« Reply #947 on: May 02, 2018, 11:36:04 AM »
Esquire piece is well written with a lot of strong paragraphs. Judging by the time frame of the article, he used several weeks to follow Peterson or at least keep in contact.


Latest WeTheFifth pod has Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying: http://wethefifth.com/

Mandark

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« Reply #948 on: May 02, 2018, 01:06:16 PM »
i admit some of the Peterson stuff is just fascination with the man and his weird continued rising star of fame off of what is not just bad common sense for those he's speaking to, but like, bad versions of old common sense... plus as jake and others have pointed out here, and many elsewhere, and i just have had a gut reaction to from his first surfacing, he doesn't even seem good at his professed job, let alone his expansion into undergrad philosophy which seems to have not even skimmed wikipedia first

I think it makes more sense if you place him in the context of the self-help industry (both religious and non-religious). Marianne Williamson, Tony Robbins, Wayne Dyer, Rick Warren, etc. are barely on my radar but have or had massive followings.

etiolate

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« Reply #949 on: May 02, 2018, 05:11:17 PM »
Finished listening to the Fifth Column pod with Bret and Heather. Several topics covered: IQ and Heritability, gender/sex being more defined than race/population, universities and the replication crisis, Jordan Peterson's popularity, The Intellectual Dark Web, and Free Markets versus regulation (more an analysis of the eventuality of successful markets).

Mandark

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« Reply #950 on: May 02, 2018, 06:17:32 PM »
Why are so many people even talking about IQ

:thinking

etiolate

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« Reply #951 on: May 02, 2018, 06:19:23 PM »
They have high avg IQs now and I think also test high in openness, which would lead them into arts/media. There's probably high cultural pressure to move into high earning careers and marry into high earning men, which is reflected in other cultures as well.

IQs have also been turning upwards and tend to improve with better living standards up to a point. Weinstein gets into heritability and tries to explain it but it's still a bit murky to me. He says things like how a trait can be heritable due to another trait selecting for it that is a reflection of cultural belief.

I think the discussion of IQ is so volatile because there's a war over who or what defines intelligence. People in the Ezra/Vox camp (I believe) want intelligence to be a social reward for having the correct views. Something like IQ tries to make it a metric, which takes intelligence out of the hand of gatekeepers.

I personally think that denying the intelligence discussion is dangerous.

etiolate

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« Reply #952 on: May 02, 2018, 06:34:21 PM »
I thought the Jewish Question is why are there so many Jews in finance and Hollywood and Law? The idea behind it being a secret person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation conspiracy. Peterson's point was that tail ends of populations overrepresent at the top and Jews overreperesent at the tail end, creating a disproportionate amount in certain sectors of work.

Anti-semitism is older for certain, but its had various forms. Cultural norms that were different than Jewish faith beliefs had left the workings of money handling primarily with the Jews. Jews had less of a moral aversion to medicine and science so they also represent am important part of doctoral history. Though I guess Peterson could have gone into that and made his explanation more sufficient. I believe he's recognizing the current JQ as being a Mandark-like  :thinking from white identitarians.

Mandark

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« Reply #953 on: May 02, 2018, 06:39:24 PM »
I thought the Jewish Question is why are there so many Jews in finance and Hollywood and Law?

it's not

Nola

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« Reply #954 on: May 02, 2018, 06:48:14 PM »
Why are so many people even talking about IQ

Btw I found out recently that JP's thing about Jews and high IQ is wrong. Ashkenazi Jews had an average iq of about 98 before the first world war, so it isn't an adequate explanation for their prevalence in high status occupations. This factoid brought to you by Cindi's dad, Thomas Sowell.


Not a historian on Jewish history, and have no idea how much this satisfies all the points, but I do know from reading various historical readings and from studying economic history, that Jews, as was often the case throughout history, were ostracized, marginalized, persecuted, and banned from many occupations(like farming and numerous trades) and were denied many core rights like those of certain forms of land and property ownership. However, many of the organized religions and their respective societies banned or heavily restricted interest charges, and while it was banned in Judaism between fellow Jews, it was less so for non-Jews and Jews. And the often Christian controlled societies looked past Jew to Christian loans, even at excessive usury rates. So readily available access to credit being a sort of necessity many societies felt needed(and it could indirectly help enrich the permanent upper class, especially if you force them to operate with some predatory bullshit, which is always a bonus for the rich), certain societies, like within parts of Europe, let Jews take on the socially stigmatized(but necessary) roles of banking, tax collecting, and rent collecting. Thats not to say they were the only ones in those occupations, plenty of Christians engaged in that during Medieval periods, but it does seem that by necessity and survival, a larger percentage of the Jewish population relative to others found there way to those sort of occupations.

Throw back into the pot the often laws against property rights for Jews, which naturally meant they held greater levels of liquid assets. Which is a benefit as a lender. And one thing you can get a nice return on as a lender is the merchant trade. And it just so happens Jews were often geographically dispersed(due to lovely things like persecution and massacres), but lived in close knit, often isolated communities due to their overhanging present and past circumstances. Lots of liquid capital in a growingly profitable industry, large geographic dispersion, but a close knit network to pull from, thats a pretty good formula for the merchant trade.

They began in trades that were actually considered low status, looked down on, it was only after a long period of time that the stigma of many of these occupations lifted that they were considered of higher status in society.

As a side note, you can sort of see where many of the later stereotypes - ignorant of this context - come from in Europe and elsewhere.

etiolate

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« Reply #955 on: May 02, 2018, 07:35:30 PM »



etiolate

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« Reply #956 on: May 02, 2018, 08:20:06 PM »
There's different JQs. There's the nazi JQ but also a modern one in the person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation conspiracy form. It's the latter that alt-righters keep pestering JBP with.

Mandark

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« Reply #957 on: May 02, 2018, 08:27:35 PM »
The traditional "Jewish question" is roughly analogous to "the negro problem" and "the Irish question" and is essentially a society debating how it ought to treat a minority within its borders and under its rule.

etiolate

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« Reply #958 on: May 02, 2018, 08:30:52 PM »
I'm going to need to see an example of someone using that phrase in that way from earlier than the post war period.

And if you say that it's a recent redefinition, I want to see examples of other people using it like that. Also in general it's a good idea not to appropriate Nazi terminology and then redefine it. Or make videos that address redefined Nazi terminology.

http://alt-right.com/2018/02/01/jordan-peterson-speechless-confronted-jewish-question/
http://fashthenation.com/2018/03/jordan-peterson-gets-wrong-about-the-jewish-question/

You guys aren't up to date on your far right ethno nationalist rhetoric. It's certainly convenient to the hate-filled that its the same term used to discuss wiping out the Jews, but the definition I gave is the current usage in the far-rgiht/alt-right world.

Mandark

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« Reply #959 on: May 02, 2018, 08:35:10 PM »
"This time the Jewish role in Bolshevism was put to him. The questioner observed that Bolshevism was an ideology and regime spawned by ethnic Jews who harboured a murderous hatred of white Christians."

That seems somewhat different from asking why Jewish people have so many jobs in finance, Hollywood, and law.