Author Topic: Other Forums |OT| ♀ C O R E V A L U E S ♀ Sponsored By THQNordic  (Read 1560200 times)

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PogiJones

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59340 on: January 16, 2019, 02:31:59 PM »

The Kree is banned.

Thank fucking god that dude is insufferable.

One day, an old man was walking along a beach that was littered with thousands of starfish that had been washed ashore by the high tide. As he walked he came upon a young boy who was eagerly throwing  the starfish back into the ocean, one by one.

Puzzled, the man looked at the boy and asked what he was doing. Without looking up from his task, the boy simply replied, “I’m banning these insufferable starfish, Sir.”

The old man chuckled aloud, “Son, there are thousands of insufferable starfish and only one of you. What difference can you make?”

The boy picked up a starfish, gently tossed it into the water and turning to the man, said, “I made a difference to that one!”
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 02:51:43 PM by PogiJones »

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59341 on: January 16, 2019, 02:39:40 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.


This isn't the argument I made, but I will make one point along these lines. It's probably more effective in terms of activism. However, what about the dissemination of ideas? It used to be the most important thing for the dissemination of ideas was the printing press. Of course there was a time before the printing press, but that is besides the point. The printing press allowed for ideas to have far greater reach. So important was the press in those times that people argued for 'freedom of the press'.

Now we have the internet which gives those ideas even greater reach. It is only natural then that people would argue for 'freedom of the internet' right? Recognising its importance. That's not to say we're in real trouble now, necessarily, but I will at least say the trend is troubling.

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59342 on: January 16, 2019, 02:43:03 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.

Banks deplatforming hypothetical is ridiculous because of how necessary they are but social media deplatforming hypothetical is also ridiculous?  What hypotheticals along these lines do you find acceptable?

Social media deplatforming isn't even a hypothetical at this point, it's actually happening

We're seeing people like TheKree losing their voice daily and somehow it's just too far-fetched an idea to entertain

Or when you do give it some thought you just say "ehh Kree should walk around the city IRL telling people how many posts they made and smiling smugly afterward," as if that would have the same impact
Uncle

joeboy101

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59343 on: January 16, 2019, 02:45:38 PM »
The Kree is banned.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/kirsten-gillibrand-announces-2020-presidential-run.93711/post-16912559


lol, that's it?   They must not like him anymore

1 Day on a sexism tinged comment that would have gotten another poster a week. I think this more the Mods giving him a slap upside the head to settle down a bit. Perhaps that litany of shit a page or so ago of what he’s done kinda emphasized the point. One would hope.

But this is REEEEE and hope is problematic and positivity synonymous with centricity.

Bananas

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59344 on: January 16, 2019, 02:53:36 PM »


https://www.neogaf.com/threads/roku-has-reversed-its-decision-to-host-infowars-on-its-platform-after-facing-backlash-from-its-users.1471123/page-3

Quote

This is the good conspiracy stuff. During the Cremation of Care, they reenact a fake child sacrifice. All the past presidents have attended a place in secret which pantomimes child sacrifice. I mean, just think about that for a second. They may not believe it (Nixon had some amusing things to say about the Grove), but they all attend. There’s photos. What in the world is it about this secret compound that all of our presidents attend, regardless of background or political affiliation?

And if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, that owl statue? Here’s a photo of the US capitol grounds from above:

(Image removed from quote.)

joeboy101

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59345 on: January 16, 2019, 02:54:06 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.

God forbid, an actual discussion! Thank you both so much.

Seems as the salient sticking point is whether you define a platform as a public right or not. Privatization doesn’t seem like a good measure given things like utilities and such that exist with a public responsibility, but owned privately. Having trouble deciding as both Uncle and marrec have good points on this. There’s really only one way to come to a consensus.


marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59346 on: January 16, 2019, 03:02:56 PM »
This isn't the argument I made, but I will make one point along these lines. It's probably more effective in terms of activism. However, what about the dissemination of ideas? It used to be the most important thing for the dissemination of ideas was the printing press. Of course there was a time before the printing press, but that is besides the point. The printing press allowed for ideas to have far greater reach. So important was the press in those times that people argued for 'freedom of the press'.

Now we have the internet which gives those ideas even greater reach. It is only natural then that people would argue for 'freedom of the internet' right? Recognising it's importance. That's not to say we're in real trouble now, necessarily, but I will at least say the trend is troubling.

Freedom of the press, then and now, does not mean anyone can say whatever they want and call it press and then it's suddenly this sacred fourth estate. Alex Jones may have the protections afforded the government, but he is not "press".

Also, Freedom of the press is a still just a guarantee from the government. Our institutional organizations decided that the protecting press and speech from interference is an important aspect of democracy, but they didn't explicitly say "people can say and print whatever the fuck they want". We have laws that restrict speech and press.

Freedom of the internet is already achieved under Freedom of speech. The government cannot arbitrarily decided what is and isn't on the internet, though like our 1st amendment, there are limitations. Freedom of the press does not necessitate that a 7-Eleven is constitutionally required to sell USA Today, just like Freedom of speech does not necessitate that YouTube is constitutionally required to host Alex Jones.

Banks deplatforming hypothetical is ridiculous because of how necessary they are but social media deplatforming hypothetical is also ridiculous?  What hypotheticals along these lines do you find acceptable?

Social media deplatforming isn't even a hypothetical at this point, it's actually happening

We're seeing people like TheKree losing their voice daily and somehow it's just too far-fetched an idea to entertain

Or when you do give it some thought you just say "ehh Kree should walk around the city IRL telling people how many posts they made and smiling smugly afterward," as if that would have the same impact

It's ridiculous because Black Lives Matter could not be considered hate speech by a fair minded and intelligent individual. People within the movement could absolutely be too extreme and be banned but the overall organization is perfectly within normal rhetorical bounds and there is no indication that it will ever stray outside those.

TheKree was banned because his comment was deemed sexist.

Any hypothetical along these lines is hard to take seriously because it always seems to involve "but what if the victims of hate speech were suddenly hate speech?" Sure, in some nightmare scenario where Steve King buys ALPHABET it would be a concern, but I think we can limit the scope to normal reality for now.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 03:07:43 PM by marrec »

HaughtyFrank

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stufte

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59348 on: January 16, 2019, 03:10:52 PM »
https://nypost.com/2019/01/16/cnn-analyst-accuses-black-radio-host-of-white-privilege/

A real RE moment

"Ah that's only going to give Nazis more ammo."
"Internalized racism AND he's MANSPLAINING!"

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59349 on: January 16, 2019, 03:12:26 PM »
https://nypost.com/2019/01/16/cnn-analyst-accuses-black-radio-host-of-white-privilege/

A real RE moment

You could say, since he's "one of the good ones" he is benefiting from the privilege of white people supporting his internalized racism by giving him jobs he wouldn't otherwise have if his racial opinions were different

That's... that's all I got sorry.

jorma

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59350 on: January 16, 2019, 03:20:30 PM »
when private entities have taken over hosting the public spaces that previously were operated by the government they obviously have to take over the responsibilities to protect free speech as well. it should be fucking obvious you capitalist  :doge dogs.



Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59351 on: January 16, 2019, 03:22:14 PM »
It's ridiculous because Black Lives Matter could not be considered hate speech by a fair minded and intelligent individual. People within the movement could absolutely be too extreme and be banned but the overall organization is perfectly within normal rhetorical bounds and there is no indication that it will ever stray outside those.

For the record obviously I think BLM is a worthy cause and shouldn't be deplatformed but I remember this and it doesn't seem a stretch for whatever site, twitter etc. to "perform its own investigations" and arrive at a moronic conclusion

So I don't actually think it's a ridiculous hypothetical
Uncle

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59352 on: January 16, 2019, 03:30:22 PM »
This isn't the argument I made, but I will make one point along these lines. It's probably more effective in terms of activism. However, what about the dissemination of ideas? It used to be the most important thing for the dissemination of ideas was the printing press. Of course there was a time before the printing press, but that is besides the point. The printing press allowed for ideas to have far greater reach. So important was the press in those times that people argued for 'freedom of the press'.

Now we have the internet which gives those ideas even greater reach. It is only natural then that people would argue for 'freedom of the internet' right? Recognising it's importance. That's not to say we're in real trouble now, necessarily, but I will at least say the trend is troubling.

Freedom of the press, then and now, does not mean anyone can say whatever they want and call it press and then it's suddenly this sacred fourth estate. Alex Jones may have the protections afforded the government, but he is not "press".

Also, Freedom of the press is a still just a guarantee from the government. Our institutional organizations decided that the protecting press and speech from interference is an important aspect of democracy, but they didn't explicitly say "people can say and print whatever the fuck they want". We have laws that restrict speech and press.

Freedom of the internet is already achieved under Freedom of speech. The government cannot arbitrarily decided what is and isn't on the internet, though like our 1st amendment, there are limitations. Freedom of the press does not necessitate that a 7-Eleven is constitutionally required to sell USA Today, just like Freedom of speech does not necessitate that YouTube is constitutionally required to host Alex Jones.

It may not have meant that in actuality, but that is exactly what people argued for. The press has been around for a long time. It's like saying freedom of the press does not mean you can say anything heretical against the church. Not in actuality, but it meant exactly that.

And in terms of freedom of speech more broadly, I think there is a small problem with the 1st amendment. Don't get me wrong, I am jealous you have such a thing. It is an incredibly useful document. What it does mean though is people in the US often argue in terms of the 1st amendment and not necessarily in terms of freedom of speech as a principle. For instance a freedom of speech absolutist would argue against any censorship, government or otherwise. Not strictly because of the 1st amendment but as a social principle. It would be inconsistent to say for instance that you're a free speech absolutist, but yet you personally are against the principle of free speech when it comes to the institute you belong to. No they're for free speech within that insitution as a matter of principle.

One of the greatest free speech advocates, John Stuart Mill, didn't just argue free speech solely when it came to the state, but also noted other forms of censorship. In fact most of the great arguments for free speech does not address it solely as interference by the government but notes other forms.

However, as I have already ackowledged, freedom of speech does interfere with property rights. So ultimately is best not to advocate for compelling it, but rather encouraging it. To try to foster an environment where freedom of speech can thrive. It is no use for instance if you have free speech protections from the government but all private enterprises operate in a way that it is as if there is no free speech protections from the government. It may not be entirely the same thing, government censorship is far war worse than corporate censorship, but if the result is the same either way, you can at least see there is a 'problematic' aspect to it. That's not say things are that bad in reality, it is just a hypothetical that demonstrates it can be still just as problematic regardless of whether it is done government sponsored or otherwise.
I will also point out that the threat doesn't come solely from the US, Europe is just as much a threat, possibly a bigger threat since there are no free speech protections.

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59353 on: January 16, 2019, 03:46:12 PM »
when private entities have taken over hosting the public spaces that previously were operated by the government they obviously have to take over the responsibilities to protect free speech as well.
wat

I will also point out that the threat doesn't come solely from the US, Europe is just as much a threat, possibly a bigger threat since there are no free speech protections.
wat

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59354 on: January 16, 2019, 03:53:04 PM »
when private entities have taken over hosting the public spaces that previously were operated by the government they obviously have to take over the responsibilities to protect free speech as well.
wat

I will also point out that the threat doesn't come solely from the US, Europe is just as much a threat, possibly a bigger threat since there are no free speech protections.
wat

I don't get what your point is. There is no 1st amendment in Europe. Many European countries have hate speech legislation for example.

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59355 on: January 16, 2019, 04:00:00 PM »
Which is a very far cry from saying that there are no free speech protections in Europe.

stufte

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59356 on: January 16, 2019, 04:02:56 PM »
The new Far Cry was pretty good.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59357 on: January 16, 2019, 04:06:06 PM »
I realised marrec you're also using the term 'the press' in a relatively modern sense meaning solely news outlets. Think more in terms of the invention of the printing press. Freedom of the press as it was originally argued was about literal access to the printing press; the ability to disseminate information on a mass scale.

Quote
Legal Definition of freedom of the press

: the right to publish and disseminate information, thoughts, and opinions without restraint or censorship as guaranteed under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

I'm not talking about the right of Alex Jones to be considered a news outlet.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59358 on: January 16, 2019, 04:09:55 PM »
Which is a very far cry from saying that there are no free speech protections in Europe.

If certain speech is not protected, how is there free speech protection?

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59359 on: January 16, 2019, 04:11:01 PM »
Guys. 
:no1curr
que

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59360 on: January 16, 2019, 04:15:02 PM »
sum1curr

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59361 on: January 16, 2019, 04:17:07 PM »
If certain speech is not protected, how is there free speech protection?
Wham bam, we're in the realm of impossible ideals all of a sudden.

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59362 on: January 16, 2019, 04:20:59 PM »
I'm only interested in ree speech
Uncle

joeboy101

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59363 on: January 16, 2019, 04:21:21 PM »
The new Far Cry was pretty good.

Respawning enemies just after you leave sight of them sucks. Can’t drive 1/8 of a mile down the road without a truck full of sponges jumping on your dick.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59364 on: January 16, 2019, 04:21:23 PM »
If certain speech is not protected, how is there free speech protection?
Wham bam, we're in the realm of impossible ideals all of a sudden.

It seems the US is living the impossible ideal dream. lol

It must be an enigma to you how people in the US survive. :p

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59365 on: January 16, 2019, 04:23:04 PM »
I'm only interested in ree speech

Y'all hear they dug up where Chris Pratt goes to church? It's apparently a controversial church  :o

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59366 on: January 16, 2019, 04:26:10 PM »
I'm only interested in ree speech

Y'all hear they dug up where Chris Pratt goes to church? It's apparently a controversial church  :o

I google this and the first site I go to

You did this on purpose didn't you

Uncle

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59367 on: January 16, 2019, 04:26:57 PM »
It seems the US is living the impossible ideal dream. lol
:rofl

HaughtyFrank

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thetylerrob

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59369 on: January 16, 2019, 04:28:42 PM »
Vacillating between care posts and shit posts  :aah

PogiJones

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59370 on: January 16, 2019, 04:28:50 PM »
If certain speech is not protected, how is there free speech protection?
Wham bam, we're in the realm of impossible ideals all of a sudden.

It seems the US is living the impossible ideal dream. lol

It must be an enigma to you how people in the US survive. :p

No, he's right. Some speech is not protected. Libel and slander are easy examples. Yelling "Fire" in a crowded movie theater is a classic example. Pornography to some extent (you couldn't play your home-made sex tape in a kindergarten class, for example).

There are almost no absolute principles. Even the "right to life" principle isn't absolute. If you are trying to kill someone, you've forfeit your right to life, and they can legally kill you.

So this discussion is mostly about where on the spectrum we choose to draw lines, which can be pretty subjective.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59371 on: January 16, 2019, 04:29:01 PM »
It seems the US is living the impossible ideal dream. lol
:rofl

You know, you're a bit of enigma to me in fact. :p

Europe: hate speech.
US: No hate speech.

Not hard to get your head around. lol

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59372 on: January 16, 2019, 04:31:02 PM »
You do realize the US has hate speech laws, right? Meaning they don't have absolute free speech either, which according to you is not Free Speech(TM).

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59373 on: January 16, 2019, 04:31:05 PM »
I'm only interested in ree speech

Y'all hear they dug up where Chris Pratt goes to church? It's apparently a controversial church  :o

I google this and the first site I go to

You did this on purpose didn't you

(Image removed from quote.)

you are now infected with thegayagenda.exe

agrajag

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59374 on: January 16, 2019, 04:34:48 PM »
Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59375 on: January 16, 2019, 04:35:36 PM »
If certain speech is not protected, how is there free speech protection?
Wham bam, we're in the realm of impossible ideals all of a sudden.

It seems the US is living the impossible ideal dream. lol

It must be an enigma to you how people in the US survive. :p

No, he's right. Some speech is not protected. Libel and slander are easy examples. Yelling "Fire" in a crowded movie theater is a classic example. Pornography to some extent (you couldn't play a porn video in a kindergarten class, for example).

There are almost no absolute principles. Even the "right to life" principle isn't absolute. If you are trying to kill someone, you've forfeit your right to life, and they can legally kill you.

So this discussion is mostly about where on the spectrum we choose to draw lines, which can be pretty subjective.

Okay. Many people who are staunch supporters of free speech draw the line somewhere. For example, incitement to violence is a common line. Whether there should be libel laws is more up for debate. That said it is hard to win a libel case in the US.

in terms of your opinions and your right to say them, that is pretty much protected in the US where in Europe it is not.

Sure, fine, there is no absolute freedom of speech, but I just find it starting to knitpick a little when meant in the general sense when comparing Europe to the US.

PogiJones

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59376 on: January 16, 2019, 04:36:09 PM »
That's not entirely true, either. Swinging your fist at someone's face could be seen as assault (not to be confused with battery). Depending on the circumstances.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59377 on: January 16, 2019, 04:38:29 PM »
You do realize the US has hate speech laws, right? Meaning they don't have absolute free speech either, which according to you is not Free Speech(TM).

What hate speech laws?

Quote
Hate speech in the United States. Hate speech in the United States is not regulated, in contrast to that of most other liberal democracies. The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that hate speech is legally protected free speech under the First Amendment.

PogiJones

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59378 on: January 16, 2019, 04:42:04 PM »
Okay. Many people who are staunch supporters of free speech draw the line somewhere. For example, incitement to violence is a common line. Whether there should be libel laws is more up for debate. That said it is hard to win a libel case in the US.

in terms of your opinions and your right to say them, that is pretty much protected in the US where in Europe it is not.

Sure, fine, there is no absolute freedom of speech, but I just find it starting to knitpick a little when meant in the general sense when comparing Europe to the US.

Sure, but your original assertion was that Europe doesn't have free speech because they have limitations on their free speech. By that metric, no one has free speech. Yet you also asserted the U.S. does. So it's a straight logical contradiction with yourself.

Now, if you want to say speech in the U.S. is more free than in Europe, that's an assertion that could be reasonably maintained. (Although I'm no expert on EU law, so I can't say that's fully right. There may be areas of speech that are more free in the EU.)

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59379 on: January 16, 2019, 04:42:44 PM »
That said, in terms of your opinions and your right to say them, that is pretty much protected in the US where in Europe is not.
There are very constrained edge cases where the US is more permissive than Europe (holocaust denial being a big one), but on the whole it's ridiculous to say there are no protections for free speech or freedom of expression in Europe.

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59380 on: January 16, 2019, 04:43:09 PM »
That's not entirely true, either. Swinging your fist at someone's face could be seen as assault (not to be confused with battery). Depending on the circumstances.


that's a quote from Abraham J Trump you piece of shit

PogiJones

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59381 on: January 16, 2019, 04:45:18 PM »
Abrah_m J. T__mp  :wag

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59382 on: January 16, 2019, 04:46:48 PM »
Okay. Many people who are staunch supporters of free speech draw the line somewhere. For example, incitement to violence is a common line. Whether there should be libel laws is more up for debate. That said it is hard to win a libel case in the US.

in terms of your opinions and your right to say them, that is pretty much protected in the US where in Europe it is not.

Sure, fine, there is no absolute freedom of speech, but I just find it starting to knitpick a little when meant in the general sense when comparing Europe to the US.

Sure, but your original assertion was that Europe doesn't have free speech because they have limitations on their free speech. By that metric, no one has free speech. Yet you also asserted the U.S. does. So it's a straight logical contradiction with yourself.

Now, if you want to say speech in the U.S. is more free than in Europe, that's an assertion that could be reasonably maintained.

There are people who maintain no speech whatsoever should be off limits because of this contradiction. However, there also many who are happy to say the limit is incitement to violence and still call it 'free speech'. I'm not being absolutely consistent, but then that is the same with many other people who stop at incitement to violence..

Maybe phrasing what I said in that way leaves me open to the argument you made I guess.

Jansen

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59383 on: January 16, 2019, 04:49:36 PM »

Uncle

  • Have You Ever
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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59384 on: January 16, 2019, 04:51:01 PM »
Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins

That still gives them leave to punch your dick tho
Uncle

Jansen

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59385 on: January 16, 2019, 04:51:59 PM »

Nintex

  • HAHA posts go BRRRRRR
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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59386 on: January 16, 2019, 04:52:08 PM »
Quote
My third brother is in his mid-teens, and is the reason I'm making this thread. He's always been the friendly, outgoing one, and had a gentle heart. We had a good relationship for a while, and I felt like I could exert some influence on him to point him in the right direction regarding respect for women and all the other difficult things that young men are having trouble with in today's toxic masculine world. But when he started going through those typical teenage mood swings, he pulled away from me and fell under the influence of my brothers and dad, and soon enough he was watching Ben Shapiro and other right-wing garbage on Youtube. It was too late for me to reach him.

 :rejoice
🤵🏼

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59387 on: January 16, 2019, 04:53:20 PM »
Quote from: marrec
essay

Quote from: leadbelly
essay

Quote from: Uncle
essay

Quote from: PogiJones
essay


:cat

bork sort this out

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59388 on: January 16, 2019, 04:54:36 PM »
That said, in terms of your opinions and your right to say them, that is pretty much protected in the US where in Europe is not.
There are very constrained edge cases where the US is more permissive than Europe (holocaust denial being a big one), but on the whole it's ridiculous to say there are no protections for free speech or freedom of expression in Europe.

There is no 1st amendment like protections. That is what I meant.  There is nothing to stop any new legislation being passed tomorrow. Which is why we have hate speech in Europe. There is nothing to protect us from not having hate speech laws.

...

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59389 on: January 16, 2019, 04:57:26 PM »
You do realize the US has hate speech laws, right? Meaning they don't have absolute free speech either, which according to you is not Free Speech(TM).

What hate speech laws?

Quote
Hate speech in the United States. Hate speech in the United States is not regulated, in contrast to that of most other liberal democracies. The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that hate speech is legally protected free speech under the First Amendment.
Well, fuck me sideways. Still, my point stands. The US being closer to the ideal doesn't mean that Europe doesn't have any free speech protections whatsoever. :hmph

[parade of Bowsette]
You have to use something that doesn't have near forum-wide approval.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 05:10:05 PM by Rufus »

PogiJones

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59390 on: January 16, 2019, 04:57:35 PM »
My "essay" was like two quarter-paragraphs. That ain't no essay.

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59391 on: January 16, 2019, 04:59:57 PM »
You do realize the US has hate speech laws, right? Meaning they don't have absolute free speech either, which according to you is not Free Speech(TM).

What hate speech laws?

Quote
Hate speech in the United States. Hate speech in the United States is not regulated, in contrast to that of most other liberal democracies. The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that hate speech is legally protected free speech under the First Amendment.
Well, fuck me sideways. Still, my point stands. The US being closer to the ideal doesn't mean that Europe doesn't have no free speech protections whatsoever. :hmph

[parade of Bowsette]
You have to use something that doesn't have near forum-wide approval.

lol

marrec

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59392 on: January 16, 2019, 05:00:03 PM »
My "essay" was like two quarter-paragraphs. That ain't no essay.

In this post I will write an essay in an attempt to prove you wrong and show that essays can indeed be like two quarter paragraphs:

Introduction to the Essay-

spoiler (click to show/hide)
not really tho
[close]

Uncle

  • Have You Ever
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59393 on: January 16, 2019, 05:00:20 PM »
The first amendment is the condom that protects lady liberty from getting knocked up by the jizz of agenda-driven censorship

But some people say we've kept it in our wallet too long when in actuality it's still fine and they're just trying to poke a hole in it

Now others argue that lady liberty could just take a morning after pill but with the way big pharma is going she might get to the CVS and find out the price is all jacked up

So she'll just stand there at the counter quietly sobbing with censorship jizz slowly leaking out of her puss
Uncle

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59394 on: January 16, 2019, 05:00:46 PM »
There is no 1st amendment like protections. That is what I meant.
Why didn't you say that the first time. >:(

Nintex

  • HAHA posts go BRRRRRR
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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59395 on: January 16, 2019, 05:03:11 PM »
There is no 1st amendment like protections. That is what I meant.
Why didn't you say that the first time. >:(
He's following my teachings
🤵🏼

remy

  • Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59396 on: January 16, 2019, 05:03:15 PM »
The first amendment is the condom that protects lady liberty from getting knocked up by the jizz of agenda-driven censorship

But some people say we've kept it in our wallet too long when in actuality it's still fine and they're just trying to poke a hole in it

Now others argue that lady liberty could just take a morning after pill but with the way big pharma is going she might get to the CVS and find out the price is all jacked up

So she'll just stand there at the counter quietly sobbing with censorship jizz slowly leaking out of her puss
Great. Now I am extremely aroused.

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59397 on: January 16, 2019, 05:04:33 PM »
There is no 1st amendment like protections. That is what I meant.
Why didn't you say that the first time. >:(

I wish I did to be honest. :p

jorma

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59398 on: January 16, 2019, 05:08:42 PM »
That said, in terms of your opinions and your right to say them, that is pretty much protected in the US where in Europe is not.
There are very constrained edge cases where the US is more permissive than Europe (holocaust denial being a big one), but on the whole it's ridiculous to say there are no protections for free speech or freedom of expression in Europe.

There is no 1st amendment like protections. That is what I meant.  There is nothing to stop any new legislation being passed tomorrow. Which is why we have hate speech in Europe. There is nothing to protect us from not having hate speech laws.

...

you are using Europe very liberally here, because Sweden does have both freedom of the press and speech constitutionally protected, meaning that it would take two parliamentary sessions with an election inbetween to change them


jorma

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #59399 on: January 16, 2019, 05:10:30 PM »
when private entities have taken over hosting the public spaces that previously were operated by the government they obviously have to take over the responsibilities to protect free speech as well.
wat

I will also point out that the threat doesn't come solely from the US, Europe is just as much a threat, possibly a bigger threat since there are no free speech protections.
wat

how was that unclear? private enterprise now owns the spaces where the soap boxes are placed