Author Topic: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.  (Read 218466 times)

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shosta

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Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America - Bore favorite Barbara Ehrenreich's undercover survey of low wage work in America. Quite a famous book
The Act of Killing - Shocking documentary following an old man reminiscing on his role in the massacre of two million accused leftists in Indonesia
On the Clock: What Low-Wage Work Did to Me and How It Drives America Insane - 2019 version of Nickel and Dimed for our AI supervised Amazon hell
Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA - recommended by prolific GAF communist Chichikov and benji
Settlers: The Mythology of the White Proletariat - Kara told me to read this as a joke but I accidentally took it seriously and now I'm an extremist
Israel in the U.S. Empire - "short" essay from Monthly Review that I think everyone should read if they want to understand Israel's relationship with the United States
The Limits to Capital - This book by David Harvey is Marx remixed, reinterpreted, reapplied to contemporary (late 70s) conditions. Absolutely essential reading.
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OnlyRegret

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Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America - Bore favorite Barbara Ehrenreich's undercover survey of low wage work in America. Quite a famous book
The Act of Killing - Shocking documentary following an old man reminiscing on his role in the massacre of two million accused leftists in Indonesia
On the Clock: What Low-Wage Work Did to Me and How It Drives America Insane - 2019 version of Nickel and Dimed for our AI supervised Amazon hell
Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA - recommended by prolific GAF communist Chichikov and benji
Settlers: The Mythology of the White Proletariat - Kara told me to read this as a joke but I accidentally took it seriously and now I'm an extremist
Israel in the U.S. Empire - "short" essay from Monthly Review that I think everyone should read if they want to understand Israel's relationship with the United States
The Limits to Capital - This book by David Harvey is Marx remixed, reinterpreted, reapplied to contemporary (late 70s) conditions. Absolutely essential reading.

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/press-releases-statements/press-release-archive-2007/legacy-of-ashes.html

:rofl

shosta

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As to the points about the slow growth of employment in wage-labor, part of the tendency of the rate of profit to fall wrt expanded reproduction is that variable capital expands slower than constant capital [...] So the growth of surplus population that becomes lumpen reserve armies of labor doesn't necessarily negate the idea that the industrial proletariat [...] is still the active struggling force against the contradictions of capital to create a new form of society.
I agree with you, and it seems you also agree with the nplusone piece, that the relationship people have with production will always be a central aspect of socialist struggle. But just to nitpick, let's not take the falling rate of profit for granted. I think it'll hold true in the long run but it's not technically true, but also it not being technically true is not technically true (p. 12), and also Sraffa himself thought that Marx's reasoning was essentially correct but that technical change tended to be neutral wrt to capital intensiveness, but there's also the recent explosion of the service industry, but one has to be careful about that because some of that is productive work and some of that is social consumption (throwback to the discussion with curly), and also...

What I'm trying to say is that it's complicated, and we should never limit ourselves by appealing to the walking dead. So much has happened in the ensuing 150 years.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 09:09:52 PM by hhkcvaoitsso »
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shosta

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https://twitter.com/profwolff/status/1259516547388841985

Big Dick Wolff puts out bangers like this every day but I just had to share this one :lol
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Tripon

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https://twitter.com/profwolff/status/1259516547388841985

Big Dick Wolff puts out bangers like this every day but I just had to share this one :lol

That skeptical of contact tracing?  :doge


shosta

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Since this doubles as the academic bafoonery thread... Jake, is Heidegger worth getting into?
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jakefromstatefarm

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Heidegger
literally the only guy in the CanonTM that i legit dislike. you get enough of the mickey mouse reception of him through osmosis to not have to read him too intensively. unless you just really wanna get into continental phenomenology

read The Question Concerning Technology (the rest of the essays included here look like they might be worth checking out, never read them myself) and the intro to Being and Time and see if you want to keep going

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Quote from: Heidegger, in 1935
...Europe lies in the pincers between Russia and America, which are metaphysically the same...
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curly

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@karlmarxjunior :girlaff

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see kmarx trending for me but it's just dum comix
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jakefromstatefarm

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Parmenides: chre to legein te noein teon emmanai

how it’s usually translated: one should both say and think that being is

how Heidegger translates it: needful is the gathering setting-forth as well the apprehension: the essent in its being

how Heidegger translates it 60 pages later: it is needful to collect oneself, to concentrate on the being of the essent

shosta

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Trent Dole

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Hi

benjipwns

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Twitter accounts aren't Being first or the biggest to translate something isn't really a barometer for success, but they are a good way to fake it.

BisMarckie

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The first thing the JDPON should do when it takes power is outlaw keurig cups.

Third way Nespresso wins again :klob


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Do Mass Effect: Andromeda next! :hyper



Joe Molotov

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mfw someone starts casually dropping marxist theory
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Mandark

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Saw some tweets about a podcast feud and assumed it was more Brooklyn leftist drama but turns out it has to do with Barstool Sports.

jakefromstatefarm

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fuck yeah. have you guys listened to call her daddy? its one of the nicest grifts ive seen in a minute. cue a bunch of shitlib thinkpieces pontificating on how much it moves The DiscourseTM forward

Mandark

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Oh no you don't.

As soon as I found out what it was, I was filled with a sense of relief that I wouldn't need to look into it and form an opinion.

jakefromstatefarm

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no but this one’s actually almost interesting! i promise!

shosta

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so I just read this, what else am I missing in order to fully enjoy this?
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jakefromstatefarm

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thats basically the long and the short of the beef that ive seen. the two hosts pushing back against a company full of cuntholes for their right to make hundreds of thousands of dollars for talking and the company full of cuntholes crying about this to the media because they think they have a right to make hundreds of thousands of dollars off other people talking. there’s also some b-plot where “an insider”(:neogaf) divulged that actually, the girls hate each other, and they’ll totally cave soon

im more a fan of the podcast itself and the grandstanding around it as some important feminist reclamation, rather than a simple inversion of sex-as-conflict misogyny that ends up affirming all the same awful shit.

shosta

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there’s also some b-plot where “an insider”(:neogaf) divulged that actually, the girls hate each other, and they’ll totally cave soon
according to that splainer, it's true, alexandra is already not speaking to sofia and she's trying to make amends with Portnoy :lol
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jakefromstatefarm

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like, it’s such a great indication that, yes, barstool is run exactly the way these same people ran their greek chapters ~15 years ago

shosta

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http://www.empirelogistics.org/

:ohhh
fuckkkkk yes, I've been wanting something like this for a while: hard data backing up where the most effective supply chain strikes should be

I fully expect Indonesia to be an extremely vulnerable resource bottleneck
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Tripon

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jakefromstatefarm

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Quote
The Carthaginian constitution deviates from aristocracy and inclines to oligarchy, chiefly on a point where popular opinion is on their side. For men in general think that magistrates should be chosen not only for their merit, but for their wealth: a man, they say, who is poor cannot rule well- he has not the leisure. If, then, election of magistrates for their wealth be characteristic of oligarchy, and election for merit of aristocracy, there will be a third form under which the constitution of Carthage is comprehended; for the Carthaginians choose their magistrates, and particularly the highest of them- their kings and generals- with an eye both to merit and to wealth.

Quote
The distribution of offices according to merit is a special characteristic of aristocracy, for the principle of an aristocracy is virtue, as wealth is of an oligarchy, and freedom of a democracy. In all of them there of course exists the right of the majority, and whatever seems good to the majority of those who share in the government has authority. Now in most states the form called polity exists, for the fusion goes no further than the attempt to unite the freedom of the poor and the wealth of the rich, who commonly take the place of the noble. But as there are three grounds on which men claim an equal share in the government, freedom, wealth, and virtue (for the fourth or good birth is the result of the two last, being only ancient wealth and virtue), it is clear that the admixture of the two elements, that is to say, of the rich and poor, is to be called a polity or constitutional government; and the union of the three is to be called aristocracy or the government of the best, and more than any other form of government, except the true and ideal, has a right to this name.

i hinted earlier itt of an American evasion of democracy, to brutalize West. this story wrt the founding generation’s matriculation in english ‘mixed constitution’ thought and on again off again relationship with the actual term ‘democracy’ is well known by now. what Wood brings up is the other dimension, namely, the eclipse of the classical understanding of political power. above are two passages from aristotle’s politics. the ‘classical understanding’ is the analysis of institutions based on the bloc of the body politic from which it’s constituted. not representative of. power, for aristotle, isn’t delegated. it can’t be divested or held on reserve elsewhere, it’s either in a subject or it isn’t, and a subject either has institutions that empower them in the public sphere or they don’t. there’s a triad of paradigmatic blocs, distinguished by what proportion of the body politic they constitute: minimalist, minoritarian, and majoritarian. where it gets p interesting is when he outlines how each ‘form’ -monarchy, aristocracy, democracy- has its own organizing or bedrock principle, and this is something that basically the whole ‘classical understanding’ tradition shares down to the 18th century. merit, or virtue, just is what’s characteristic of aristocracy -literally rule of the best. it doesn’t matter, at least in the final analysis, what deliberative procedure you employ to detect merit or virtue. if a given institution is designed to invest with power those with merit or virtue, this is an aristocratic institution. this is what makes Congress effectively an aristocratic body. not simply because they’re a group of 535 people with significant sovereignty over a population of 330 million, though this fact’s non-trivial too. but because the electorate’s power to shape and deliberate over its legislation is forfeited to other people because of these people’s supposed superior deliberative ability. according to american federalist thought, the  people nominate one of their own to represent them (either transparently conducting the people’s interests or Burkeanly making the people’s choices for them). according to the classical understanding, the democratic element creates a makeshift aristocratic order to rule them.

im gonna paper over the executive and judiciary’s implications here because these are even worse offenders and i think my initial point’s been made. what brought me to carepost was 1) shosta cryposting about how much he hates it and 2) the thinkpiece eulogy-cum-diagnoses for the bernie campaign from both the anti-anti-anti-idpol left and the law and liberty east coast Straussians that keep sending me newsletters because i can never remember to ask to be taken off the mailing list (:rage). what seems common to both is that they claim the american left’s failure to gain electoral traction is due to its being both too exclusionary and too promiscuous. too exclusionary to entertain, let’s be real, reaction of various stripes and too promiscuous specifically with the language of New Left idpol. part of the jeremiad is that left thought was once coherent, and coherently marxist in particular. but the marriage of class struggle and diversity was (is) an unhappy one, and we see this playing out in practice now (one of the law and liberty types said that the treatment of the modern subject as protean, and the emphasis on self-creation/imagining/fashioning is an irreducibly bourgeois one and thus fundamentally incompatible with proletarian eschatology, which struck me as just inutterably stupid).

so, i think the implications of this reading of 2019-2020 are disgusting in what they say about bernie’s attempt to expand the public sphere/electorate and farcical in how much relevance they give to something like rose emoji twitter (fwiw, top-down intellectual reshaping of politics has always been the purview of the right, not the left). But they are illustrative of something important: not even the opposition can think of an extra-marxist radleft. even the liberty fund types are nostalgic for 20th century marxism :heh (i get that this is obv just rhetorical posturing). what i mean to point out here is, the avenue’s wide open and we have a toolkit to construct a moral language for left politics that isn’t explicitly poliecon. i think something like this reemphasis on democracy -what it means and how we’ve been failed by the people who’ve claimed it- can easily be wedded to certain persuasions; if you’re really in love with your histmat or your post-keynsianism or whatever this isn’t gonna kill you. but for the purposes of evangelization i think it’s important to have something in the arsenal that doesn’t require minnesota fed papers to explain (not that that’s unequivocally bad), and you even get to cite everyone’s favorite 4th century slaveowning gay-hating misogynist while you do it!

Mandark

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counterpoint: if Bernie said a bunch of slurs he would have the nomination and a 20 point lead in the polls

shosta

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shosta cryposting about how much he hates it
I love careposts, dude. And yours are among the best here  :heartbeat
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shosta

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i think something like this reemphasis on democracy -what it means and how we’ve been failed by the people who’ve claimed it- can easily be wedded to certain persuasions; if you’re really in love with your histmat or your post-keynsianism or whatever this isn’t gonna kill you. but for the purposes of evangelization i think it’s important to have something in the arsenal that doesn’t require minnesota fed papers to explain (not that that’s unequivocally bad), and you even get to cite everyone’s favorite 4th century slaveowning gay-hating misogynist while you do it!
Isn't there already a coherent tradition of left thought with a semi-distinct lineage from marxism: progressive humanism? Anti-war, pro public goods, pro liberal freedom... this is a whole language and worldview that's already widely employed and has secured its permanent seat in American politics. In terms of evangelism for the purpose of getting votes, this is the right place to start, and is strictly broader than your radical democracy. Moreover, if you read Luxemburg or Lenin, the classical marxism you make fun of has already tapped into this language a long time ago. It also features prominently in the Democracy at Work crew like Richard Wolff and Bhaskar Sunkara.
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benjipwns

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https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/g5pbex/audio-no-evil-foods-a-faux-leftist-vegan-meat-company-busts-union-drive
Quote
Earlier this year, the company No Evil Foods, which sells a variety of socialist-themed vegan meats, fought a union drive at its Weaverville, North Carolina plant that included numerous “captive audience” meetings where management told workers to vote against a union.

Motherboard obtained a 23-minute video of No Evil Food’s CEO and co-founder Mike Woliansky repeatedly imploring workers to vote “no” in the union election, and telling workers that a union could hamper the company’s ability to “save lives” and “change the world.”

In his speech, Woliansky compared joining the United Food and Commercial Workers (UFCW) union, which represents tens of thousands of meatpacking workers in the US, to “hitching your wagon to a huge organization with high paid executives and a history of scandal and supporting slaughterhouses,” he said. “I don’t think that’s an organization you want to support with your dues money."

No Evil Foods brands itself with a socialist messaging and sells $8 packages of vegan products with leftist names like "Comrade Cluck" (a chicken substitute seasoned with garlic and onion), and "El Zapatista" (a mock chorizo)
Quote
In recent weeks, the company fired several workers who led the union drive at its manufacturing plant (known as “the Axis”), according to a report in the Appeal. Four employees told Motherboard that the company has fired five workers active in labor organizing since April.

jakefromstatefarm

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Isn't there already a coherent tradition of left thought with a semi-distinct lineage from marxism: progressive humanism? Anti-war, pro public goods, pro liberal freedom... this is a whole language and worldview that's already widely employed and has secured its permanent seat in American politics. In terms of evangelism for the purpose of getting votes, this is the right place to start, and is strictly broader than your radical democracy. Moreover, if you read Luxemburg or Lenin, the classical marxism you make fun of has already tapped into this language a long time ago. It also features prominently in the Democracy at Work crew like Richard Wolff and Bhaskar Sunkara.
yes, 100%. im definitely not reinventing the wheel here. the kind of radical democratic and egalitarian moral language im groping towards is definitely informed by, and should be complementary to, 20th century left progressivist moral language (or at least the parts that are worth keeping). but i don’t think the latter swallows the former, mostly because it centralizes a problem that usually gets viewed as ancillary by the broad progressivist tradition, namely, governance. like, politics as politics, rather than as ethics/moral sentiment writ broadly (liberal & left progressivism) or political economy (marxism; a lot of post-keynesian projects). if left progressivism tries to clarify the question “what conditions need to be met in order for a democratic society to be minimally just”, then i think this alternative language would help clarify “what conditions need to be met in order for our society to be maximally democratic”. and that’s where sortition, referenda, thinking about what democracy’s extension into civil society would mean (democracy at work is specifically something i had in mind), and whatever else come in. again, not claiming the novelty of this, it’s actually something i think is implicitly at work in left american politics over the past decade that im trying to tease out with the help of The Canon (pbuh).

and i think your roster there underscores my initial point. 3 of those 4 are explicitly working within marxism, the other at least sees himself as having some lineage ultimately leading to marx. i wanna deflate (not completely) the importance of poliecon for left politics. yes, for getting people into the door, but also to promote solidarity internally. maybe it’s my twitter brainrot setting in, but so many of the internal debates and bitching i see are relitigations of century-old bugbears, usually delimited by orthodox marxism. thankfully, it’s not really indicative of something DSA, or whoever, actually experiences when they engage in organizing or getting out the vote.

and jokes on you, i love luxembourg the radical democrat :bolo
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i think this project would vitiate a lot in Leninism, though. if left politics isn’t just about representing the powerless, but empowering them with tools of governance, then i think we have to take seriously the idea that the vanguard party is anti-democratic
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jakefromstatefarm

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and jokes on you, i love luxembourg the radical democrat :bolo
the joke’s still mostly on me though. i’ve been meaning to go through her for a while now but haven’t yet b/c the verso books are just too expensive :crybaby

curly

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I don't know if I can cosign entirely, what makes the Nu Left more promising to me is the renewed focus on political economy. "Radical democratic and egalitarian moral language"sounds like The Nation circa 2004, far from a golden era for radical possibilities. Not that there's no place for that kind of language in the present day (workplace democracy!) but it should be married to a deeper polecon analysis. One of the kernels of promise with Bernie-ism and Occupy Wall Street was that it brought a long dead tradition back into the spotlight and promised to make the subterranean currents of the present visible, compromised as it was by imperfect ideas like the 99 percent and imperfect evangelists like Jacobin. To summon the spirit of Kara, why go looking for a new guy when there's a perfectly good Marx right there?

shosta

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the joke’s still mostly on me though. i’ve been meaning to go through her for a while now but haven’t yet b/c the verso books are just too expensive :crybaby
imo the primary value of luxemburg is as a primary source of the buildup to WWI. And the main lesson to take away in general from the German experience or the Finns or the Chileans is that they will drag you out of your house and fucking kill you.
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shosta

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Happy Harvey Milk Day, btw.
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Madrun Badrun

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https://twitter.com/KarlMarxJunior/status/1259970850780053506

 :kermit

Motorcycles also radicalized me.  Those loud manchildren need to die.

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communist propaganda  :thinking
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shosta

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Struggle session time. Hong Kong riots, Chilean riots, Minneapolis riots: why do I care about property damage so much? What piece of latent ideology am I still holding onto subconsciously? :thinking I am clearly on the wrong side :doge
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shosta

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I just want to take all this energy and put it into real change or at least sustainable pressure, not formless chaos that fizzles out after three days :stahp
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Madrun Badrun

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Struggle session time. Hong Kong riots, Chilean riots, Minneapolis riots: why do I care about property damage so much? What piece of latent ideology am I still holding onto subconsciously? :thinking I am clearly on the wrong side :doge

You a secret cap simp. 

bluemax

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https://twitter.com/PatBlanchfield/status/1264227186728411137
https://twitter.com/PatBlanchfield/status/1264229212963196930
https://twitter.com/PatBlanchfield/status/1264231156926611457

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I worked with a number of ex CoD devs at my last job. One of them, a map designer, would watch Liveleaks at work for fun. In all my time in the industry I had met very many people who were conservatives, or conservatives who claimed to be libertarians. And these were the guys who claimed to be tired of making Call of Duty games!
NO

curly

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I just want to take all this energy and put it into real change or at least sustainable pressure, not formless chaos that fizzles out after three days :stahp

A few days ago we didn't even have formless chaos and you're already complaining? Communists these days.


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turns out we do need a revolution  :bernie

biden was wrong  :biden
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full thing on yt:


Crash Dummy

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I just want to take all this energy and put it into real change or at least sustainable pressure, not formless chaos that fizzles out after three days :stahp
not to go all thiel on you but have you read any rene girard?

shosta

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shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #2036 on: June 01, 2020, 09:16:24 PM »
not to go all thiel on you but have you read any rene girard?
never heard of him
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shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #2037 on: June 02, 2020, 11:50:40 PM »
https://twitter.com/cordeliers/status/1267766561399603200

https://twitter.com/RedKahina/status/1267836681098575874

I still love this particular interpretation and I'm impressed by the dedication :lol
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jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #2038 on: June 03, 2020, 12:00:36 AM »
can i get the crib sheet on that section of left twitter?  im a little mystified

shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #2039 on: June 03, 2020, 12:05:59 AM »
Extremely online smug lefter-than-thou types with absolutely no significance otherwise; a curiosity at best. Red Kahina is some kind of elusive heiress. It's all very weird
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