Author Topic: Playstation 5 (Read 192120 times)

Don Rumata · « **Reply #960 on:** September 17, 2020, 12:16:52 AM »

Quote from: Bebpo on September 16, 2020, 11:30:09 PM

Quote from: Don Rumata on September 16, 2020, 11:23:55 PM
The console comes out in less than 2 months, and we don't even know how it enhances BC games.
Hopefully in October.

I don't expect BloodBorne at 60fps anyway, that dream is dead. $:-\$

Actually we do know this one. Though there's a shit ton of stuff we don't know about the system in general.

When you play a PS4 game you get three options (potentially 4)

Compatibility mode PS4 - Plays the game exactly 1:1 the same as playing on the PS4
Compatibility mode PS4 Pro - Plays the game exactly 1:1 the same as playing on the PS4 pro
Boost Mode - lol, let the emulator fly, maybe some games will load faster, have better framerates (if they were unlocked to begin with), might break some games. Aka Boost Mode on PS2/PS3/Pro.

4th option is upgrade patch. This will be game specific if a developer wants to put the effort in to basically remaster the game at higher settings (4k/60fps/120fps/etc...) for PS5. I have a feeling there's not going to be many of these and they might not come all too quick. I'm hoping Ghost of Tsushima gets one of these, same with Last of Us II, and I expect they both will but it might be like 3-12 months later.

I hope all of the games in that PS+ collection get that patch.
At the very least i would like rendering resolution improvements (like on an emulator).

naff · « **Reply #961 on:** September 17, 2020, 12:23:30 AM »

i'll take the game working properly. idk why devs would put work into improving a game for a new system with no incentive. seems crazy. bumping up res and patching performance then testing those changes would require people to work for free. that's what fan community pc stuff is for /shrug

Don Rumata · « **Reply #962 on:** September 17, 2020, 12:29:59 AM »

Quote from: naff on September 17, 2020, 12:23:30 AM

i'll take the game working properly. idk why devs would put work into improving a game for a new system with no incentive. seems crazy. bumping up res and patching performance then testing those changes would require people to work for free. that's what fan community pc stuff is for /shrug

You can keep selling the game on PS5 though, and that'd be an incentive.
Why remaster Taxi Driver in 4K otherwise?

Rahxephon91 · « **Reply #963 on:** September 17, 2020, 12:38:54 AM »

Yeah "4k Remaster" are going to be the release filler for this gen.

And honestly I know people like BC, but I also do like re-releases. Gives chances to really improve the game beyond simply what I can do on my PC. Also puts the game back in the spotlight which I think is great. Doubt a friend of mine would have played ZoE2 if he had to track down a PS2 disc.

naff · « **Reply #964 on:** September 17, 2020, 12:41:58 AM »

wait, bvut we're talking about allowing people to jam their old discs in the console/use their already purchased digital ps4 titles. yes, a remaster is a whole different thing.

naff · « **Reply #965 on:** September 17, 2020, 12:42:48 AM »

maybe we'll see some business model like "pay $20 for graphix update" or something.

Rahxephon91 · « **Reply #966 on:** September 17, 2020, 12:48:25 AM »

Oh, well another reason BC on console dosen't do much for me is there's a limit to what can be improved.

Like yeah maybe PS5 can boost say Gravity Rush 2 to the best picture quality possible, but I doubt it can make it run at 60fps.

I guess it's a good thing lots of games towards the end of this gen had unlocked fps.

naff · « **Reply #967 on:** September 17, 2020, 12:54:52 AM »

depends how much overhead there is in the software behind the bc i guess. but generally, the hardware is a significant bump and should be ok rendering ps4 games at their native res with twice the frames. i imagine it's all down to how games were implemented and how their bc tech works. any pc game you'd comfortably expect to double your framerate if you improved your hardware to the extent ps5 has changed over ps4 if you don't improve IQ in other places.

Bebpo · « **Reply #968 on:** September 17, 2020, 01:34:48 AM »

Quote from: Rahxephon91 on September 17, 2020, 12:48:25 AM

Oh, well another reason BC on console dosen't do much for me is there's a limit to what can be improved.

Like yeah maybe PS5 can boost say Gravity Rush 2 to the best picture quality possible, but I doubt it can make it run at 60fps.

I guess it's a good thing lots of games towards the end of this gen had unlocked fps.

Yeah looked it up and Gravity Rush 2 was locked 30fps (though had dips) at 4k resolution. Best you could hope for in boost mode is just getting rid of any dips. If they locked it to 30fps it's not going to run at 60fps.

Don Rumata · « **Reply #969 on:** September 17, 2020, 01:57:00 AM »

If i play a 5 years old game on a new GPU, i can blast it in 4K, no reason why they can't push for that on consoles with (minimal) work, like Xbox one X BC does anyway, you can play Xbox 360 or even OG Xbox games in 4K.
Why would Sony do this on some of their top shelf products for free? Because it's good publicity, it reinforces those brands, it reinforces their brand in general, and it pushes new people to try out those games in the first place.
Sony is putting 90% of their eggs in their "exclusives" basket, so nurturing those exclusives through time, is entirely within that strategy.

Really, pushing BB to run in 4K on PS5 with a patch can't take all that much work.

Rahxephon91 · « **Reply #970 on:** September 17, 2020, 02:06:38 AM »

I'm sure it wouldn't be as work intensive to do that, but I also pretty much believe MS did it because they did'nt really have much going on and the did need the good publicity. But in the end I also wonder if it translated into anything for them. While it can obviously be done, MS also has a dedicated team to it and there's limitations to what they can do and how much they can output. But also in the end I also ask is that preferable?

Yeah I think Gears 3 on the Xbox One X looks great. But it also still runs at 30fps and the assets and general art are still limited by what they could do at the time. A for profit remaster could go further. It could also do less, so there's no guarantee. Also not everything is going to get the kind of work say Modern Warfare 1 and 2 got where it's prett much a new coat put over the game.

I'd love BB to run at 4k. But I'd also like it ro run at a higher frame rate.

Raist · « **Reply #971 on:** September 17, 2020, 02:19:25 AM »

Bluepoint

brawndolicious · « **Reply #972 on:** September 17, 2020, 02:42:05 AM »

The good news is that you can play your PS4 games on PS5. But apparently, the bad news is that you can play your PS5 games on PS4?

Also I thought it was bad when Sony announced they're charging $70 USD for games. But they just slapped Euroland with the ultimate disrespect by saying that translates to 80 feckin' euros.

Quote from: Don Rumata on September 17, 2020, 01:57:00 AM

If i play a 5 years old game on a new GPU, i can blast it in 4K, no reason why they can't push for that on consoles with (minimal) work, like Xbox one X BC does anyway, you can play Xbox 360 or even OG Xbox games in 4K.
Why would Sony do this on some of their top shelf products for free? Because it's good publicity, it reinforces those brands, it reinforces their brand in general, and it pushes new people to try out those games in the first place.
Sony is putting 90% of their eggs in their "exclusives" basket, so nurturing those exclusives through time, is entirely within that strategy.

Really, pushing BB to run in 4K on PS5 with a patch can't take all that much work.

MS has had a really good emulation team for like over a decade. I mean, any big company could make an emulator (there's even an open source PS3 emulator for PC) but setting up the system to increase performance/fidelity/HDR in a way that doesn't break the game and actually validating each game takes time and resources. I think Sony is just too much of a traditional hardware company to try selling consumers on software features.

Cerveza mas fina · « **Reply #973 on:** September 17, 2020, 02:49:48 AM »

Imagine buying a digital only PS5 and being forced to pay 80 euro on psn for games.

Only more reason to stick with team Xbox and gamepass.

I expected Sony to unveil a sub service at least.

Bebpo · « **Reply #974 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:36:01 AM »

At least Sony games, even digitally, bomb pretty quick and you can pick them up for $20-$30 in no time unlike Nintendo 1st party.

But yeah, with Game Pass xbox is obviously the way better deal if you're looking at 3rd party stuff and don't have a top of the line gaming PC.

I recommend Series S + Game Pass to all my casual gaming friends for next gen and PS5 for the weaboos.

Nintex · « **Reply #975 on:** September 17, 2020, 05:23:45 AM »

I recommend to wait for a price drop and more next gen exclusives if you aren't a hardcore Snoyboy or Xbot unless you are short of a device that plays Cyberpunk 2077 or you've got money to burn.
In that case get a PlayStation 5 Thicc or an RTX 3070/3080 as it will probably last you 4 - 5 years minimum.

The most interesting exclusive launch game on any platform is Demon's Souls, which looks very good but is still just a remaster. Along with Spider-Man if you haven't yet played it.

If you're still unsure what to buy at this point, you've probably already lost your shot at getting anything on day 1 anyway.

MMaRsu · « **Reply #976 on:** September 17, 2020, 05:53:37 AM »

Not a fan of all the specific redesigns, I think in general it looks great but it doesn't feel ... lonely and sad like DS should

It looks.. generic.

Pissy F Benny · « **Reply #977 on:** September 17, 2020, 06:32:53 AM »

Quote from: Bebpo on September 16, 2020, 11:56:09 PM

I still have no idea why you call me Justin

Bebpo, Bebpo, Bebpo oooohhhhhh

Svejk · « **Reply #978 on:** September 17, 2020, 08:05:02 AM »

Svejk · « **Reply #979 on:** September 17, 2020, 08:17:41 AM »

PS5 Nov. 12, then a week later, Cyberpunk....

that is, If I can manage to snag one.. stayed up half the night refreshing everything that I could to pre-order. No luck at all.

Svejk · « **Reply #980 on:** September 17, 2020, 08:47:22 AM »

https://twitter.com/feliciavagabond/status/1306390739434299392

Svejk · « **Reply #981 on:** September 17, 2020, 09:12:35 AM »

Quote from: Philip Cardgage on September 17, 2020, 09:04:07 AM

Quote from: Svejk on September 17, 2020, 08:17:41 AM
PS5 Nov. 12, then a week later, Cyberpunk....

that is, If I can manage to snag one.. stayed up half the night refreshing everything that I could to pre-order. No luck at all.

Yeah that next gen patch is a ways away though.

Yeah, I figure as much.. but surely there'll be some benefit playing it on PS5 vs. base PS4. I'll take faster load times, if anything.

bork · « **Reply #982 on:** September 17, 2020, 09:15:55 AM »

Quote from: Svejk on September 17, 2020, 09:12:35 AM

Quote from: Philip Cardgage on September 17, 2020, 09:04:07 AM
Quote from: Svejk on September 17, 2020, 08:17:41 AM
PS5 Nov. 12, then a week later, Cyberpunk....

that is, If I can manage to snag one.. stayed up half the night refreshing everything that I could to pre-order. No luck at all.

Yeah that next gen patch is a ways away though.
Yeah, I figure as much.. but surely there'll be some benefit playing it on PS5 vs. base PS4. I'll take faster load times, if anything.

Or you could just get it on your PC, where it will likely still look/run better compared to the PS4 version.

Svejk · « **Reply #983 on:** September 17, 2020, 09:30:36 AM »

Quote from: bork on September 17, 2020, 09:15:55 AM

Quote from: Svejk on September 17, 2020, 09:12:35 AM
Quote from: Philip Cardgage on September 17, 2020, 09:04:07 AM
Quote from: Svejk on September 17, 2020, 08:17:41 AM
PS5 Nov. 12, then a week later, Cyberpunk....

that is, If I can manage to snag one.. stayed up half the night refreshing everything that I could to pre-order. No luck at all.

Yeah that next gen patch is a ways away though.
Yeah, I figure as much.. but surely there'll be some benefit playing it on PS5 vs. base PS4. I'll take faster load times, if anything.

Or you could just get it on your PC, where it will likely still look/run better compared to the PS4 version.

Honestly, I may double dip, because I'm torn on which character/origin to start as, so I may have 2 games going.

Nintex · « **Reply #984 on:** September 17, 2020, 11:34:45 AM »

There's one store not opening orders until 24 hours before launch, all the other online stores in the Netherlands have sold their pre-order allocation.

Some increased the price to 549 and 599 for the final few units.
Sony might make some more stock available but this launch is going to be big.

paprikastaude · « **Reply #985 on:** September 17, 2020, 11:36:56 AM »

https://www.dualshockers.com/ps5-forward-compatible-ps4/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Not sure why they couldn't clarify that before.

Kestastrophe · « **Reply #986 on:** September 17, 2020, 11:38:50 AM »

Anyone have luck preordering in store?

Also, has sony mentioned if theyre going to support vita remote play?

Nintex · « **Reply #987 on:** September 17, 2020, 11:43:03 AM »

Quote from: Spieler1 on September 17, 2020, 11:36:56 AM

https://www.dualshockers.com/ps5-forward-compatible-ps4/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Not sure why they couldn't clarify that before.

Probably a pretty late addition to the software that they were unsure would be ready for launch?

paprikastaude · « **Reply #988 on:** September 17, 2020, 12:45:36 PM »

Quote from: MMaRsu on September 17, 2020, 05:53:37 AM

Not a fan of all the specific redesigns, I think in general it looks great but it doesn't feel ... lonely and sad like DS should

(Image removed from quote.)

It looks.. generic.

Some of the environments look bleak enough (still too much fauna), but some of these boss comparisons and others keep myself debating whether to get LTTP on the original instead.

Akala · « **Reply #989 on:** September 17, 2020, 01:35:08 PM »

was grabbing spider man and best buy was showing systems available a minute ago.

paprikastaude · « **Reply #990 on:** September 17, 2020, 01:41:49 PM »

Quote from: Spieler1 on September 17, 2020, 12:45:36 PM

Quote from: MMaRsu on September 17, 2020, 05:53:37 AM
Not a fan of all the specific redesigns, I think in general it looks great but it doesn't feel ... lonely and sad like DS should

(Image removed from quote.)

It looks.. generic.

Some of the environments look bleak enough (still too much fauna), but some of these boss comparisons and others keep myself debating whether to get LTTP on the original instead.

On the other hand

The technical strength alone might be convincing enough.

Let's Cyber · « **Reply #991 on:** September 17, 2020, 01:49:59 PM »

I got a preorder invite directly from Sony via e-mail but not sure how solid that actually is. For all I know that shit will stay open all of 10 minutes

Bebpo · « **Reply #992 on:** September 17, 2020, 02:01:50 PM »

Quote from: Let's Cyber on September 17, 2020, 01:49:59 PM

I got a preorder invite directly from Sony via e-mail but not sure how solid that actually is. For all I know that shit will stay open all of 10 minutes

I thought when they announced the raffle thing for this they said they would hold your pre-order spot for like 24-48 hours if you were selected.

Svejk · « **Reply #993 on:** September 17, 2020, 02:28:24 PM »

Quote from: Bebpo on September 17, 2020, 02:01:50 PM

Quote from: Let's Cyber on September 17, 2020, 01:49:59 PM
I got a preorder invite directly from Sony via e-mail but not sure how solid that actually is. For all I know that shit will stay open all of 10 minutes

I thought when they announced the raffle thing for this they said they would hold your pre-order spot for like 24-48 hours if you were selected.

I hope so. I got one this morning too. I've had no luck otherwise. I just want to snag a digi edition.

I wonder what the story is on that PSVR/camera adapter... Kinda need to know about that, Sony.

demi · « **Reply #994 on:** September 17, 2020, 02:56:09 PM »

Demon Souls looks great, not sure why people whining about it.

MMaRsu · « **Reply #995 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:07:00 PM »

Quote from: riotous on September 17, 2020, 02:57:02 PM

Quote from: demi on September 17, 2020, 02:56:09 PM
Demon Souls looks great, not sure why people whining about it.
Never played a Souls game

MMaRsu · « **Reply #996 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:07:28 PM »

Quote from: demi on September 17, 2020, 02:56:09 PM

Demon Souls looks great, not sure why people whining about it.

Jesus christ is any form of criticism instantly whining now?

I'm not even being a purist or anything, I just think some enviroments look a little too fancy, when the original game is very drab and bleak (and intentionally so)

stfu bitch

demi · « **Reply #997 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:08:34 PM »

Funnel more energy into making montages instead

MMaRsu · « **Reply #998 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:09:20 PM »

Quote from: demi on September 17, 2020, 03:08:34 PM

Funnel more energy into making montages instead

Im just being honest it's stupid af to label any form of criticism as "whining" and really doesn't add anything to the conversation at hand.

Technically it looks marvelous.

MMaRsu · « **Reply #999 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:15:03 PM »

You know I got love for you demi but sometimes

demi · « **Reply #1000 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:20:47 PM »

Not sure why you thought I was directly talking about you, but if the shoe fits

It's fine if you don't care for the trailer

Cerveza mas fina · « **Reply #1001 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:21:34 PM »

Hahahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Demi Real Hahahaha nicca Just Walk Away From The Screen Like nicca Close Your Eyes Haha

Cerveza mas fina · « **Reply #1002 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:25:30 PM »

Btw still a big fucking LOL that the PS5 costs less then the PS3 14 years later without inflation adjustment

Accounting for inflation the PS3 would have cost 800 dollars today

MMaRsu · « **Reply #1003 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:33:00 PM »

Quote from: demi on September 17, 2020, 03:20:47 PM

Not sure why you thought I was directly talking about you, but if the shoe fits

It's fine if you don't care for the trailer

Well I personally think everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I did care for the trailer, it's like the only PS5 game I'm interested in.

Just think the artsyle isnt all that

MMaRsu · « **Reply #1004 on:** September 17, 2020, 03:50:25 PM »

Quote from: riotous on September 17, 2020, 03:35:49 PM

You really think it was drab and kinda empty on purpose and not because.. it was a PS3 game? lol

I mean yeah especially since if you compare it to Dark Souls it's entirely different. But maybe I shouldnt argue the game's feeling and artstyle with someone who hasn't played a single one of these games?

Pissy F Benny · « **Reply #1005 on:** September 17, 2020, 04:47:44 PM »

I do like how the cheaper version is actually the suckers edition

Don Rumata · « **Reply #1006 on:** September 17, 2020, 04:49:15 PM »

Quote from: Spieler1 on September 17, 2020, 12:45:36 PM

Quote from: MMaRsu on September 17, 2020, 05:53:37 AM
Not a fan of all the specific redesigns, I think in general it looks great but it doesn't feel ... lonely and sad like DS should

(Image removed from quote.)

It looks.. generic.

Some of the environments look bleak enough (still too much fauna), but some of these boss comparisons and others keep myself debating whether to get LTTP on the original instead.

As someone who completed the original several times, i think the remake looks better in just about every single way.
No doubt you should play that, unless they fucked with the gameplay in some way we still don't know about (but even then, Demon's gameplay was very rough around the edges, as a Souls game).

Bebpo · « **Reply #1007 on:** September 17, 2020, 05:55:40 PM »

Yesterday I was trying to look up info on launch games and I was looking into this Destruction Allstars game that looks dumb. Apparently the developers are ex-Bizarre Creations?

So it could actually be a good racer... hmmmm. Will keep an eye on it. I even liked Blur. Bizarre could do no racing wrong with me.

Though if it's all just arena based that's lame. At least make it like Twisted Metal with cool cityscapes to drive around and battle in.

Rahxephon91 · « **Reply #1008 on:** September 17, 2020, 06:00:03 PM »

Quote from: Philip Cardgage on September 17, 2020, 05:16:47 PM

https://www.siliconera.com/jim-ryan-ps5-no-backwards-compatibility-with-ps3-and-older-games/

Confirmed I guess?

It would have been nice, but a PC is gonna do more for that era of games anyway.

Bebpo · « **Reply #1009 on:** September 17, 2020, 06:24:36 PM »

Quote from: Rahxephon91 on September 17, 2020, 06:00:03 PM

Quote from: Philip Cardgage on September 17, 2020, 05:16:47 PM
https://www.siliconera.com/jim-ryan-ps5-no-backwards-compatibility-with-ps3-and-older-games/

Confirmed I guess?
It would have been nice, but a PC is gonna do more for that era of games anyway.

Also I didn't fuck with it but I heard on PS4 that PS2/PS3 BC is being handled by offering some of those titles on PS Now which apparently is a decent service? I've never tried it and not too interested in it, but that seems to be the retro gaming solution they'll have for PS5 as well. Though they really need to just merge it into PS+ so you get all the PS Now library by being subbed to PS+

Rahxephon91 · « **Reply #1010 on:** September 17, 2020, 06:25:00 PM »

Yeah I’m not gonna be fast enough to get this.

brawndolicious · « **Reply #1011 on:** September 17, 2020, 07:52:57 PM »

Quote from: Bebpo on September 17, 2020, 06:24:36 PM

Quote from: Rahxephon91 on September 17, 2020, 06:00:03 PM
Quote from: Philip Cardgage on September 17, 2020, 05:16:47 PM
https://www.siliconera.com/jim-ryan-ps5-no-backwards-compatibility-with-ps3-and-older-games/

Confirmed I guess?
It would have been nice, but a PC is gonna do more for that era of games anyway.

Also I didn't fuck with it but I heard on PS4 that PS2/PS3 BC is being handled by offering some of those titles on PS Now which apparently is a decent service? I've never tried it and not too interested in it, but that seems to be the retro gaming solution they'll have for PS5 as well. Though they really need to just merge it into PS+ so you get all the PS Now library by being subbed to PS+

PS Now is like twice the price of PS+ so I don't think they'll just straight up combine it. Maybe they would give access to the PS1/2/3 generations through a PS+ sub but the other small issues are image quality/lag with game streaming (especially on a TV) and the servers will have a limited capacity so they'll probably need a queue system.

Nintex · « **Reply #1012 on:** September 17, 2020, 07:59:20 PM »

For the Dutchies, on the morning of the 18th Intertoys will open up their pre-orders.

Nedgame already takes orders for a second shipment early 2021.
Intertoys is probably your best bet for securing it before launch.

Let's Cyber · « **Reply #1013 on:** September 17, 2020, 08:18:53 PM »

Quote from: Bebpo on September 17, 2020, 02:01:50 PM

Quote from: Let's Cyber on September 17, 2020, 01:49:59 PM
I got a preorder invite directly from Sony via e-mail but not sure how solid that actually is. For all I know that shit will stay open all of 10 minutes

I thought when they announced the raffle thing for this they said they would hold your pre-order spot for like 24-48 hours if you were selected.

24 hours, yeah, but with the giant asterisk of *WHILE SUPPLIES LAST

You'd imagine sending out select codes to reserve a preorder would guarantee said person a console if they wanted within the 24 hour period but Sony's been making some dumbfuck decisions lately so idk.

Nuitangg · « **Reply #1014 on:** September 17, 2020, 08:48:46 PM »

Preorders should be back up in 15 minutes at Walmart

Svejk · « **Reply #1015 on:** September 17, 2020, 09:03:16 PM »

Walmart site said preorders start at 9pm. Sold out in less than a minute. Still couldn't grab one. Fuuuuuuu

Nuitangg · « **Reply #1016 on:** September 17, 2020, 09:05:53 PM »

Keep refreshing I was able to order one even though it was saying out of stock

who is ted danson? · « **Reply #1017 on:** September 18, 2020, 10:55:48 AM »

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-09-16-demons-souls-and-spider-man-miles-morales-will-be-ps5-launch-games

Quote

Astro's Playroom (Japan Studio) - pre-installed on PS5
Demon's Souls (Bluepoint Games / Japan Studio) - £69.99 (RRP)
Destruction AllStars (Lucid Games / XDEV) - £69.99 (RRP)
Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales (Insomniac Games) - £51.99 (RRP)
Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales Ultimate Edition (Insomniac Games) - £69.99 (RRP)
Sackboy A Big Adventure (Sumo Digital / XDEV) - £59.99 (RRP)

dat next gen £70 RRP

PC all the way (again) LMAO

Svejk · « **Reply #1018 on:** September 18, 2020, 02:19:07 PM »

Finally got a digi edition through the pre-order invite.

Supposedly PS Plus members will have it delivered by day of launch too.

Rahxephon91 · « **Reply #1019 on:** September 18, 2020, 03:29:13 PM »

Quote from: Svejk on September 18, 2020, 02:19:07 PM

Finally got a digi edition through the pre-order invite. Supposedly PS Plus members will have it delivered by day of launch too.

Yeah I signed up for this and nothing. Despite being a Playstation cheerleader, PS+ person for years, and having over like 200 PS4 games I never get these PSN deals or whatever.

Don't be a stan kids.

News:

Author Topic: Playstation 5 (Read 192120 times)