So overnight there was Community Drama in the weekly Media Create sales thread. I've only ever really popped in there to check numbers and dip out, so I have zero opinion on the apparent festering issues with hot-take Sony Ponys drive-bying the thread or the Nintendo faithful constantly port-begging in there, or whatever else the overall problem is.
The latest kerfuffle, unsurprisingly, seems to stem from the moderation team having paper-thin skin. cvxfreak and Chris1964 get into it over the meaning of some article about some talk a guy did.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/media-create-sales-week-36-2021-sep-06-sep-12-read-staff-post.487222/post-73650931The aggressive responses in here are clearly from people who don't actually read Japanese, only filtering the info through Google Translate for a surface level understanding, and then making assumptions about what the overarching point of the talk is, culminating in the perpetuation of false information. It needs to stop.
Things to keep in mind:
The Famitsu article is a SUMMARY of Matsuyama's talk
Matsuyama's talk itself is a SUMMARY of his 128-page book about the subject of game development (which, as you might imagine, is a lot more nuanced than a Famitsu summary)
If you want to criticize Matsuyama's findings, read the book first. Good luck with that if you don't know Japanese.
The Famitsu summary literally quotes Matsuyama as saying "Of course, it depends on the product." In Japanese, people will automatically infer that to mean there will be variance in the actual data, but the underlying point of Matsuyama's talk about how parts of the industry subsidize others is the key takeaway (of course, Google Translate won't tell you that, nor will analyzing Japanese through your native language or English)
Good grief, people.
Matsuyama's seminar is low level analysis with this 100k barrier and if he wanted to say "it depends on the game" maybe he shouldn't post all these slides generalising everything. Even the person who attended the seminar made the same observations and I'm sure he knew Japanese.
When I present a summary of a project at my work I don't expect those who listen to know the entire background of it because I said something but that's not what I wanted to say and I meant something else.
They go back and forth for a while and it ends around here, with nobody being actioned:
Since this discussion won't end, for last time I say that I don't take back a word, except the ResetEra troll part, from what I said for Matsuyama presentation and the supposed false information I provided unless I want to forget everything I know for statistical and market analysis.
Ignorance of Japanese reality, google translation, surface analysis, having to be there or reading the book so that I can see the full picture have nothing to do with my opinion, everyone is judged for what he says and I can also judge what I read.
But then discussion about moderation continues, with Chris being fairly critical:
From the moment the increase of drive by and troll posts is allowed from moderation don't be surprised if you see everywhere passive aggressive posts even where there aren't. We have more accusations for passive aggressive posts in this thread than how many actually there are and the famous meme for "bad Media Create threads and posters" gets free pass anymore even in here.
A transparent alt account was recently permanently banned after years of hot takes and pollution in these threads and not because he was finally discovered but because of multiple bans for the same reason. So yes, don't expect moderators to solve everything or that this place is closely and carefully watched.
Which, again, unactioned, until he mocks the earlier conversation:
i dunno. matsuyama dropping truth bombs about the industry as a whole makes about as much sense as some dude from kemco.
I don't think you are qualified enough to judge Matsuyama.
would it help if i've met the guy?
No, you must learn Japanese fluently and read his book.
Which earns Chris a one-day ban for the "I don't think you are qualified enough" post:
User Banned (1 Day): Trolling over multiple posts
The thread moves on, goes back to sales things, and then later that day Chris is banned for the "I don't think you are qualified" joke. The thread notices, gets mad, and cvxfreak drops the new mod guidelines for the thread:
OFFICIAL STAFF COMMUNICATION
Lately, there has been an uptick of reported posts and disciplinary action related to the weekly Media Create threads. Many posters have complained of no longer having a voice in these threads because certain posters, including thread regulars, have replied in a hostile or condescending manner. This needs to stop. Please keep the following advice in mind when participating in these threads, regardless of how long you've been part of this community. Failure to do so could result in action being taken.
Sales threads should always be about that — the sales data itself. They should not be used as a guise for port begging, console/platform wars or other forms of trolling that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere on the forum.
In general, sales threads should focus on business and economic elements, i.e. comparing past and present data, observing trends, or making educated guesses.
While these threads do focus on Japan, it is not against the rules to discuss worldwide sales trends in the context of Japanese sales. It is OK to compare data from Japan to other countries, but like all posts, it needs to be done in good faith.
Do not be snarky, passive aggressive, condescending or otherwise disrespectful towards other users that you don't agree with. Not everyone has the same knowledge of sales and business, and if you feel someone is incorrect in their interpretation of data, constructively correct them (in as much detail as possible) instead of mocking them. Make yourself useful, not disruptive.
Sales data should never be weaponized or used to justify racist rhetoric, such as generalizing, mocking or trivializing the interests of another country, such as Japan or China.
Accusations that companies or creators/developers are showing favoritism for or bias against certain companies (i.e. Nagoshi, Harada, Nihon Falcom, etc. for Sony/against Nintendo) are not allowed unless there is evidence supporting such accusations.
Drive-bys and other inappropriate commentary are not allowed. (i.e. no-substance single word/sentences responses like "bomba").
If you're posting any kind of data, please post a link or source for transparency going forward. This not only includes sales data, but also information gleaned from retail blogs or Twitter accounts.
If you're posting about information that originally appeared in a non-English language such as Japanese (or a language you don't necessarily understand), please be confident as to the accuracy of the translation. If you're not confident, say so and reach out to the community to get an accurate reading.
If you see a post that goes against the above guidelines, please report it for review. If you have any questions, please DM a mod such as myself. Thank you.
Regulars are unhappy, people who I'm guessing fall into the drive-by category celebrate the toppling of the Media Create elite, a couple of mod whining warnings are tossed out.
Then the bans start:
User banned (1 month): Mod-whining and inappropriate comparisons to minority issues over multiple posts.
I understand the fears some may have here over what has happened in other threads, but I hope we can all take a collective deep breath and let things play out for a bit. cvxfreak has already implied they're willing to flexible on certain rules and I think we should take that at face value. I don't think it's fair to be fatalistic and assume the worst when it hasn't even been a day yet (which by that point Chris will hopefully be back). I do think things were festering for too long and it eventually had to burst. I just don't think we should have unfounded fears until we see drastic shifts happen in moderation.
TransEra after sweeping improvements: gone
AsianEra after sweeping improvements: gone
The worst part is that those communities at least had a few mods that were fighting for them. We don't have that luxury here.
User Banned (3 Days): Derailing Thread Over Numerous Posts, Modwhining
Most of the data is pretty easily verifiable too. I mean most people just search numbers at GDL or the old weekly or whitepaper threads on NG/Era.
it's clear whoever asked for that one didn't like chris occasionally posting about shipments and stock.
User banned (permanent): hostility, mod whining, racist concern trolling, long history of the same behaviour
I know that mods will say everyone is moderated to the same standard
I don’t know how can anyone say this with a straight face lol.. we had that racist 343 person that didn’t get perma’d until a whole community push the mods to perma ban him
plus we still have another person close with the admins/mods that had multiple bans bout racisim and if that’s any another user they would have been perma’d a long time ago
User Banned (3 Days): Hostility, accusations of shilling
And that this all was started because a mod seemingly is affiliated with a developer (in whatever form) took grievance to people criticizing said developer by talking down to posters and mocking them for not understanding the language or having to read a book (which the mod seemingly hasn't read either).
The provided translation did almost nothing to change the perception of a poor take from the developer, but the mod took the whole situation to double down and went full scorch earth on the community.
My best guess on this one is the poster rethought the post, tried to remove it, and it was reinstated to explain their ban?
User banned (duration pending admin review): Mod whining, trolling and hostility over multiple posts. Numerous previous infractions for trolling
Thread need moderation.
But the direction of moderation to please the discord planet is hilarious instead of prioritize ERA community itself.
And can I insult CVX here? you lurking for like 200 years here since GAF and before Jesus walk on water but still pull this out?
Even Nibel and Zhuge was better than that without not making dad/mom jokes.
ps. Ishaan did nothing wrong tho, but he getting use, I guess.
(mod edit: post reverted to previous version)
User banned (1 week): Mod whining, using an extremely inappropriate comparison invoking minority groups
Let's see how the threads are moderated going forward. They weren't really moderated at all, trolls or regulars, in the past. If bad faith posters (actual bad faith posters, not people who are curious about the market but aren't as knowledgeable) continue to go unactioned, I'm sure cvxfreak will take a look at it.
The rules are flexible/amenable if they don't work out for the better or cause other issues.
These types of sweeping guidelines have worked out so well in the past and will definitely fix things.
*looks at PC Era, AsiaEra and Trans Era*
I just don’t have any faith in that.
User banned (duration tbd by admins): Mod-whining, inappropriate comparisons, long history of platform warring
XboxEra too.
The thread is then locked by Exactly Who You'd Guess Based On The Recent Ban Messages:
Temporarily locked while we review the reports coming in.
Thread unlocked.
Staff are open to criticism regarding the rules we set in place, especially when it is taken to the appropriate channels. However, that criticism should never jump the line into attacking staff or conspiratorial accusations of bias.
It also shouldn't jump the line into equating the issues of minority communities with video game sales data.
Behave yourselves. Any posts violating any rules here or in cvx's post will be actioned accordingly.
There are a couple of posts objecting to painting "Era mods interacting with communities has not traditionally gone well for the communities" as equating minority issues with game sales, the inhabitants are still unhappy with the changes, and a couple of pages later:
This thread is locked while we review reports. It may be some time before it reopens if we choose to reopen it.
I'm just going to default assume everyone in the thread, regulars and drive-by posters, kind of suck; but somehow the mods once again manage to wrestle biggest asshole away from the community with their paper-thin skin. Couple of people have taken it to the Constructive thread to, I'm sure, end up either ignored or banned.