Author Topic: House of the Dragon · GRRM on HBO's Iron Throne, D&D banished North of The Wall  (Read 9228 times)

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Phoenix Dark

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I love how the outfit designs fit the setting and houses. Targaryens wear black and red. Lannisters wear crimson. Hightowers wear green. Baratheons wear yellow. I'm sure when the Starks show up next season they'll be decked in grays and blacks. It gives the show personality, vs the latter seasons of GoT where Cersei was dressed like a dark lord/queen and everyone else was also in some shade of black.
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Potato

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GoT really did turn into a shitshow in all departments, didn't it?
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MMaRsu

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I guess so but I'm doing a GoT rewatch at the moment, just saw s4 episode 10. Im sick at the moment so a lot of spare time, I figured why not watch GoT in between HoTD 🤷🏼‍♂️. The first four seasons were really damn good. The show is a lot funnier than HoTD. More epic too. Its more fun to watch as well considering you dont have to wait weeks between episodes and months between seasons.
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Potato

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Things started going awry in season 5 if I remember correctly.

I would be keen to hear your thoughts on the rest of the series.
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Pissy F Benny

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I just watched it all, it starts slipping a little bit in series 5 imo (I thought the whole bravos storyline highly irritating for starters), but it's series 7 when the wheels really start coming off and is pretty much reduced to good moments instead of good episodes. Tbf I really liked the second episode of series 8 because it was smaller character moments with everyone before the big fight and not advancing the story they'd lost the plot on.

Hot take but i thought this week's dragons was the second weakest of the series, idk why I just found it boring and much preferred the week befores.
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Bebpo

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Ok ep this week, not sure about some of the additions to the story like foot fetish. At least the show is starting to balance the sides so you don't hate Alicent so much by making the change at the end of the last ep.

Book spoilers
spoiler (click to show/hide)
So the end bit seems like a dumb addition because in retrospect it's now like if she had just toasted Alicent and her family right there, the whole war would've been avoided. Just seems like they wanted something flashy to end the ep on.
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Phoenix Dark

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Good episode, step down from the last couple but still good. Enjoyed the long focus on King's Landing and the drama of finding Aegon. The struggle between the queen and the Hand was pretty interesting.

The ending...I get that it's episode 9 so they needed to do something. I like the idea of her escaping on her dragon, I just wish it was done differently - specifically with her not facing off against the royal family before flying off. No, she was never going to burn half the Targaryen line and the High Septon in front of gods and men. Rendering herself a kinslayer and ruining Rhaenyra's reputation forever. I'd imagine many people thought it was cool - and it was. But I'd imagine there are a lot of people saying "why didn't she end the war?!?" Come on fam, that wasn't gonna happen.

Episode 10 will be the traditional GoT "episode 9" moment.
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Bebpo

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It's also that bad GoT writing where they go "don't go for the dragon it's heavily guarded because they're expecting you to go there" and then it's like an hour later "oh hey they must be distracted, I'll go grab it now"

I just think the ep would've been better without the dragon.

I'm fine with the "let's find Aegon" story because it added some of the personal drama between the characters. I liked the rest of the ep outside the ending and the foot fetish just seemed dumb HBO GoT stuff.

Rahxephon91

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This actually felt like a GoT episode thanks to focusing and giving spotlight to numerous characters. So I liked it.

Tasty

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Very fillery episode, the Aegon search could have been cut in half or (25%). The foot fetish stuff felt like FXX schlock. Felt stircrazy just staying in King's Landing tbh. The ending was just weird, Rhaenys should have made some kind of proclamation before flying off. And they never set up that twin guy interacting with Rhaenys so him risking everything on a whim was poor. The final fade-to-black shot felt like a weird editing artifact, not HBO levels. Also, in the carriage, they did a poor job matching two shots (Aegon snickering then 0.0 seconds later having no smile). I guess the church getting blown up in GoT wasn't a one-off either, that shit happens all the time? (Was that even in the books?) The crowd and wide-shot CG/green screen also didn't seem HBO-levels, but when Rhaenys came bursting through it made sense where they spent the budget (also probably kept some extra for the finale).

Weakest ep of the series. Hoping for a strong finale.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 03:01:19 AM by Tasty »

Rahxephon91

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Rhaenys did make a proclamation. She was told to ring the bell when she came to a decision. Well he dragon roaring was her ringing the bell.

Phoenix Dark

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The focus on King's Landing made sense, I just feel like the tone was off. Narrative and visually it seemed like half the episode should have occurred during the night. Once the search for Aegon reached broad daylight it started to feel more like a series of antics than a chess game to secure the king for the queen or hand. Having Aegon discovered right at the dawn of the morning would have made more narrative sense IMO. Of course the issue with a night scene would be that the show has largely struggled with that due to digital filming and ehh direction. I wish they'd use more lighting during night scenes. Scenes that include a torch, candles, etc tend to look good. Cole and Aemond searching through the city while cloaked in fire and shadow would have looked great visually.

There's also a characterization issue IMO where a lot of characters just talk about plot. If that Aegon search scene was done in GoT you would get some type of banter between characters. Instead the dialogue largely revolved around the plot, and both groups of people searching for Aegon had the same discussion: whether he's fit to be king or not.

Then there's the issue of characters having no scenes and suddenly being on screen. Arryk and Erryk Cargyll, the two Kings Guard brothers, got their first real screen time today. Once again this feels like side characters who could have gotten scenes many episodes ago, been included in various scenes etc. Songs are sung for these characters hundreds of years later in the books, yet here their introduction is pretty...pedestrian. There could have been a quick scene of the king, queen, Rhae anyone saying "oh hey you're twins"...5 episodes ago or something. Or a scene of them training in the yard with Cole and Aemond. Something. Anything. I get that my complaint about this is usually about side characters. But in a show that is lacking memorable side characters (compared to GoT) it can become a problem. Especially in an ep like this, full of side characters interacting and largely sticking to plot conversations.
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Rahxephon91

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The show has been terrible with side characters. Can you really name the two characters that died in this episode?

Oh those knight guards are twins? I don’t even know who they are to care about their opinions.

You may think the foot fetish scene was tacky, but I’ll take it because at least it’s something to a character that hasn’t had much to them.

Sorry the timeskips and structure have not done the show any favors.

For a show where 20 years has passed it does not look or feel like it has.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 12:43:55 PM by Rahxephon91 »

Polident Hive

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Gonna admit to some dumbness, the presence of two sets of twins threw me off. Mentally I associated the Lannisters as the twins of the show. When Otto went to the Kingsguard guy, at first I thought it the other Lannister twin.

Should Mysaria survive into season 2, just drop the accent. It’s not working on any level.

Larys… very accurate portrayal of foot guys.

Boredfrom

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Holy fuck, freefolk is freaking out because the writer did a sarcastic remark: “civilians don’t count”. Obviously most nobles could careless about them, that is the point. Noble and small folk perspectives and values are so different that Rhaenys being more worried about not being a kinslayer than the lives of civilians illustrates how morally bankrupt the whole conflict is at its core.

Phoenix Dark

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I didn't like the scene but I thought it highlighted how dumb GoT was. Cersei blows up the Sept Of Baelor, murdering the queen, Hand, High Septon, and multiple lords and ladies. There's zero followup, zero consequences for it. The story just moves on. Here Rhaenys avoids killing anyone for the obvious reason that becoming a kinslayer and murdering the High Septon in the Sept of Baelor would be an egregious violation of gods and men.

But if dumb (but admittedly cool) stuff like that in GoT excited you, you're going to say last night's scene was wack because she couldn't have killed xyz but didn't. In reality, she wasn't going to murder half her family in church fellas.
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Pissy F Benny

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I didn't like the scene but I thought it highlighted how dumb GoT was. Cersei blows up the Sept Of Baelor, murdering the queen, Hand, High Septon, and multiple lords and ladies. There's zero followup, zero consequences for it. The story just moves on. Here Rhaenys avoids killing anyone for the obvious reason that becoming a kinslayer and murdering the High Septon in the Sept of Baelor would be an egregious violation of gods and men.

But if dumb (but admittedly cool) stuff like that in GoT excited you, you're going to say last night's scene was wack because she couldn't have killed xyz but didn't. In reality, she wasn't going to murder half her family in church fellas.

Pretty sure Tommen commuting suicide is the consequence of Cerci blowing up the church dude :doge
(ice)

Phoenix Dark

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I didn't like the scene but I thought it highlighted how dumb GoT was. Cersei blows up the Sept Of Baelor, murdering the queen, Hand, High Septon, and multiple lords and ladies. There's zero followup, zero consequences for it. The story just moves on. Here Rhaenys avoids killing anyone for the obvious reason that becoming a kinslayer and murdering the High Septon in the Sept of Baelor would be an egregious violation of gods and men.

But if dumb (but admittedly cool) stuff like that in GoT excited you, you're going to say last night's scene was wack because she couldn't have killed xyz but didn't. In reality, she wasn't going to murder half her family in church fellas.

Pretty sure Tommen commuting suicide is the consequence of Cerci blowing up the church dude :doge
I forgot about that, you're right. But in terms of consequences socially or realm wise? None. Nobody cared outside of Tommen.
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HaughtyFrank

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I didn't quite understand what was going on with the doors. Hightower was yelling to open them but the guards kept trying to close them, trapping the people inside.  Did the guards think they could keep the dragon inside?

BIONIC

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Alicent being an OF foot model on the side was not on my bingo card lmao
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not that I’m complaining :freeze
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MMaRsu

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Episode 10 leaked, might watch it today. 😎😎😎
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Nintex

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I didn't quite understand what was going on with the doors. Hightower was yelling to open them but the guards kept trying to close them, trapping the people inside.  Did the guards think they could keep the dragon inside?
I think those doors are fire proof so they wanted to keep the fire inside in case of dracarys.
🤴

Bebpo

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Episode 10 leaked, might watch it today. 😎😎😎

Good ep, though maybe not a great finale to the season. I didn't like one change to it from the original story though.

Book spoilers:
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ehhhhh, not a fan of the change that Aemon didn't try to kill Luceris and they both lost control of their dragons (and that Luceris' dragon attacks first, which actually goes against the book plot that the Green's make the first strike). I thought Aemon tries to kill fight him and then Barathon basically says to him "You can't fight in my house, but what you do outside my walls is no concern of mine" egging him on and then Aemon chases him down and starts the fight and kills him.

The TV show making Aemon less viscous (also making them both suck at controlling their dragons) and it being an accident seems like a bad change.

Also makes Arrax seem like a fucking stupid dragon by attacking the GIANT MOTHERFUCKING DRAGON. I get it was supposed to be like Arrax was panicking but still...

I did enjoy the gibs though. The battle looked cool, they just shouldn't have toned down Aemon to try to make him more likeable.
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« Last Edit: October 23, 2022, 10:23:07 PM by Bebpo »

Tasty

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Quote
The TV show making Aemon less viscous (also making them both suck at controlling their dragons) and it being an accident seems like a bad change.

It's a good change. It echoes Viserys in ep1 saying they don't control the dragons. It also fits the theme of things unintentionally spiraling out of control. I think it made sense as Aemond has never seen war, sure he's a bit unhinged but he's still pretty young considering he rides the oldest, grumpiest, biggest dragon in the entire fucking world. Let characters have an arc -- no one is ever fully formed from the womb.

Arrax making the first snap was only a little surprising, but I assume he's a young dumb dragon. Vhaegar being a grumpy asshole has also been previously established.

It also adds a tragedy aspect to things. I like it and it's a good change (although I did assume it was a change from the books, as I assumed the same about Viserys being all "control of dragons is an illusion.") Both good changes, and will probably be even more of a theme going forward.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2022, 10:34:56 PM by Tasty »

Tasty

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Daemon choking Rhaneyra better have some kind of follow-through or consequence.

Only a little disappointed we didn't see Winterfell this ep with Jace but budget-wise probably didn't make sense to do it this season. I hope we see some/a lot Winterfell next season purely for nostalgic reasons lol.

Rhaenys and Corlys pledging to Rhaenyra was a big moment. I thought Rhaenys would bow at the funeral which could have been cool but it made sense she didn't in context of the full episode.

Phoenix Dark

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Good finale, the pacing and feel were extremely cinematic. The music, the set pieces...really reminded me of S3 and onward GoT when you could tell the budgets went up up.

I agree I didn't like the change with Aemond, but Tasty makes a good point about the dragons not being controllable. I'd accept that argument if not for Aemond hooting and laughing like a cartoon bully during much of the chase. There's this weird tonality issue with the show where the writers desperately try to give the greens more depth and sympathy while simultaneously making them comic villains. From Aegon raping a woman to Aemond's antics...they need to just pick a tone and stick to it. This is not what "gray" characters are about.

Likewise the restraint Rhae showed not only to not officially being informed of her father's death, but of a usurper being crowned. I get that they wanted her son's death to be the turning point but still. I didn't like that change at all.

The best episodes of this season were clearly the ones where the stakes were laid out the most prominently. I don't think it's a coincidence that many of those episodes happened to be the ones after the final big time jump. Everything is where it should be now. Very curious how they juggle everything for S2 now. Pacing and story beat wise there's an opportunity for it to be one of the best seasons of the show, including GoT. And perhaps the first step of that - outside of the script writing of course - is gonna be nailing the casting for Cregan Stark. If they get that right, it's gonna be a very fun season.
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Tasty

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Ep 8 is my favorite. That whole throne room scene is still blowing my mind two weeks later. Not to mention everything else that ep...

Ep 1 is a close second, just a fantastic pilot from every angle.

Bebpo

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Yeah, ep8 had the best scenes for sure.

Overall I really liked the season. The art direction and a lot of the directing is so good and the cast is fantastic.

Phoenix Dark

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Another thing I misliked... first off I'm not a lore guy who is upset about changes or differences; as long as the spirit of the work is honored or respect I'm good, usually. That being said, creating this weird Rhae v Daemon dynamic, with her claiming the current dragons haven't been in war when they all know Vhagar exists was insane; not to mention the dragons involved in the Stepstones. I'm surprised nobody threw a red flag on that in the writing process. The other guys have the biggest and most seasoned dragon...Daemon is 100% right, you're gonna need all the dragons you can muster.

Not to mention the over reliance on the prophesy, not only as a plot device but to tie the series to GoT. Nevermind that a Targaryen wasn't on the throne when the Others arose, nor did a Targaryen (or an Aegon) end the Long Night. It's like the writers keep trying to harp on something that was already fucked up by David and Dan.
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Bebpo

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Yeah, the need to tie into GoT with the prophecy is pretty dumb but I get who its for.

I never finished GoT TV (only watched S1-S4) so it's all nonsense to me  :lol

Tasty

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Not to mention the over reliance on the prophesy, not only as a plot device but to tie the series to GoT. Nevermind that a Targaryen wasn't on the throne when the Others arose, nor did a Targaryen (or an Aegon) end the Long Night. It's like the writers keep trying to harp on something that was already fucked up by David and Dan.

Fan theory is Hot D extends from book canon and the forthcoming Winds of Winter events more than Game of Thrones the TV show, due to GRRM's involvement in the former two.

Polident Hive

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Corlys might end up a disappointment in the long run. This season, he’s the best. Reaction to his brother was just “whatever he deserved it.”

Beezy

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Another thing I misliked... first off I'm not a lore guy who is upset about changes or differences; as long as the spirit of the work is honored or respect I'm good, usually. That being said, creating this weird Rhae v Daemon dynamic, with her claiming the current dragons haven't been in war when they all know Vhagar exists was insane
Didn't she say this in response to Daemon listing all the dragons they have? I thought she meant that their own dragons haven't been to war, so they'd be no match for Vhagar.

not to mention the dragons involved in the Stepstones. I'm surprised nobody threw a red flag on that in the writing process. The other guys have the biggest and most seasoned dragon...Daemon is 100% right, you're gonna need all the dragons you can muster.
True, I didn't think about this during the episode, but Daemon spoke as if they had the upper hand, which they don't in a dragon vs. dragon fight. I guess they do if Rhaenyra is willing to burn everything to the ground. I haven't read the books though. :doge

Phoenix Dark

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Saw some publication reviews arguing the finale kind of fell flat due to the lack of character development. Hard to feel something for a character you've barely seen, compared to say...Ned Stark in S1 for instance. That's certainly a valid argument and has been my concern since halfway through the season. I thought the scene was great, and its impact on Rhae (a character people like) was the more important thing. But I also agree it highlighted a problem with most of S1 in terms of the lack of development. Fairly or unfairly people are going to compare these characters to Arya, Sansa, Jon etc.

Good news is that there are no more time jumps, the pieces are set and it's basically Game On from here on out.
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Beezy

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Question, what was Daemon doing when he was humming to his dragon? What was that scene about?

Phoenix Dark

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Question, what was Daemon doing when he was humming to his dragon? What was that scene about?
Dragons have to be bound to a human in order to control it. In Valyria they mainly used horns to control dragons, but spells were used as well. Dragons understand Valyrian, so I assumed he was using a spell to either bind a dragon to himself or prepare it for another rider.

That was Vermithor, the second largest living dragon. It's former rider, King Jaehaerys, was King Viserys' father.
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Beezy

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Thanks, I didn't realize it was a different dragon.

Nintex

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Great episode but it didn't really feel like a season finale.

2 years wait for the next season  :existential
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Bebpo

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It’s not reaaally a two year wait for this and Rings of Power S2. Both have started production and are filming next year.

These both came out in fall 2022
S2 are rumored to be end of 2023 if they can make it or more likely early 2024.

So should just be a few months more than a standard 1 year wait.

Phoenix Dark

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Where are people hearing this 2024 talk? I assumed it would be on the traditional release format, so late 2023.
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Bebpo

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Where are people hearing this 2024 talk? I assumed it would be on the traditional release format, so late 2023.

I think it's because filming doesn't wrap until like Aug 2023 and then you need time for visual effects.

Though I'm not sure why they aren't already filming S2 when S1 was a clear hit.

Polident Hive

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All I heard about the next season is they’ll up the pace to expected GOT levels, whatever that means. This season felt too fast at times with all the time jumps. Seeing the full picture, I get why they ended this season on that note. Explosive and a big dynamic shift.

Nintex

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Where are people hearing this 2024 talk? I assumed it would be on the traditional release format, so late 2023.
Pre-production starts (or started) October 2022. Filming will start March 2023 and probably run through June 2023 or August 2023 in case of reshoots.
Then there's editing, VFX and marketing. They'll probably release it between August - October 2024 like the first season.
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Tasty

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I feel like in a few weeks they're gonna say Seasons 2 and 3 are going back to back (or 3 and 4 will be when they announce them).

Nintex

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a third season has been mentioned but they probably want to drag this out to 2026.

I think the era of doing things back to back is over as it shortens the merchandising opportunities and overall lifespan of an IP.
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Phoenix Dark

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Where are people hearing this 2024 talk? I assumed it would be on the traditional release format, so late 2023.
Pre-production starts (or started) October 2022. Filming will start March 2023 and probably run through June 2023 or August 2023 in case of reshoots.
Then there's editing, VFX and marketing. They'll probably release it between August - October 2024 like the first season.
That to me points more to like an early 2024 date, similar to when GoT would debut in March or April.
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Pissy F Benny

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Episode was fine but didn't feel like the series finale until the last scene.

(ice)

Bebpo

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Real talk I think the ep spent way too much time on Rhaenyra and rushed the Storm's End bit. Like knowing that it was going there I literally checked the run time 2/3rds through the ep because I'm like are they really going to get there at this rate?

Sending envoys and their stuff should've had like 30-40 mins of events before the finale, instead of spending 40 mins on Rhaenyra reacting and then rushing through the end bit in like 10-15 mins. Show is weird in that sometimes stuff feels slowly paced out while other stuff feels really rushed. Could use some better pacing balancing next season.

HaughtyFrank

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Really enjoyed this, way more than i would have expected going in. I totally understand the critic points about character attachment etc. which was inevitably a downside of the time skips but I think the time skips also gave this first season a really nice pace, setting up all the chess pieces, so it's kind of a give and take for me. Now I'd just like to time skip to season 2....

Tasty

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3:00+

:preach

Pissy F Benny

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Also what was the point in having an extremely graphic miscarriage scene, for no one to give a fuck really?

Other than George R R Martin being a sick freak.
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BIONIC

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Also what was the point in having an extremely graphic miscarriage scene, for no one to give a fuck really?

Other than George R R Martin being a sick freak.

I really wish I wasn’t eating while that shit was on screen  :goty
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Tasty

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Womanly issues was a theme of this season which I expect will diminish going forward, just by knowing the rough shape of the plot. We've seen live births, a stillbirth, and now a miscarriage. Not saying they were looking to check all three boxes but dramatically it underscored how much weaker Rhaenyra is at the start of this whole thing, not only physically but in terms of House support, experienced dragons and Dragonriders, her legitimacy contrasted with Aegon II's, etc. She also loses her father, her (unborn) daughter, and her son this episode, which builds sympathy in the audience going into Season 2 where I expect she's going to let loose The Bells-style.

But slowly, she starts gaining strength and power over the course of the episode, starting with her cremating her unborn daughter (the ashes of the past) and continuing to her receiving her father's crown (as Aegon II wears Aegon the Conquerer's). Her new power is tempered by her memory of Viserys, and I also think the show is subtly commenting "Hey women would probably make better rulers" (see the bridge scene redux where Rhae reinforces to Otto for a second time how she alone is able to end an assured conflict without spilling blood). This second instance was also preemptively reinforced to Otto by Alicent taking charge and telling him not to murder Rhae -- he calls it "[womanly] squeamishness," but this episode showed to him how the two women trying diplomacy might just work.

Then Vhaegar has to go and start a whole Dance or something.

Phoenix Dark

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Curious why they decided to change the miscarriage. In the books she births a deformed baby with scales and other dragon-like features. Similar to the deformed baby Dany has in Game Of Thrones.

The weird thing about the childbirths was before the show premiered the writers basically went on tour shitting on GoT for the way it portrayed women. For them to trot out a show with multiple extremely graphic birth scenes, including a woman getting dragon blasted during labor, and culminating in Daemon choking his wife...lmaoo. All that shit talking and all we got was a bunch of dead women and way less sex. Women like sex too guys.
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Tasty

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Neither of those two concepts (portraying women positively, and portraying them realistically) are in conflict. To the contrary, it shows how much lower Rhaenyra begins life in this world simply due to her genitalia. It makes her successes more triumphant. It makes the stakes more human.

Her miscarrying while the men around her attempt to subvert her will and chart a course for war is a well-written manifestation of the show's core themes. It's echoed by scenes like Rhae lactating at the Small Council. Every attempt to exert her will is thwarted by the men around her, and worse, her body. As a man, it's an interesting perspective I've never given much thought, and I appreciate this art for evoking that from me.

HaughtyFrank

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https://twitter.com/WiCnet/status/1584550481221025792

Interesting idea. I honestly couldn't make too much sense of the opening credits in season 1 besides that it looked pretty

Phoenix Dark

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https://twitter.com/HOTDsource/status/1584648054086373376?

Figured the show would be successful but not match GoT. Very surprised.
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Tasty

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And the whole thing leaked two days ahead of schedule. Absolutely insane numbers.

Pissy F Benny

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Doesn't surprise me that much, its not like we're drowning in quality tv content these days, although I suppose 2022 has been one of if not the best year for it since the prestige TV boom ended :elon
(ice)