Author Topic: House of the Dragon · GRRM on HBO's Iron Throne, D&D banished North of The Wall  (Read 9029 times)

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Tasty

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Maybe it'll be good? :)





Sunday, August 21st, 2022 @ 9pm

Exclusively on HBO and HBO Max
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 11:20:49 PM by Tasty »

Tasty

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Points of discussion:

Obviously much of the dialogue and filler content will be made up, since the books just cover this stuff via historical recollection but...it sounds pretty faithful to George's ideas. And he says he's very hands on with this show. That's not really what I want to hear of course, given that it's just more evidence of how far away we are from TWOW but hey. I doubt the book comes out at this point.

There are going to be some big battles and big shock moments (blood and cheese...) but I wouldn't expect anything to match the Red Wedding or other major moments from Thrones. 17 dragons and crazy battles, plus some of major events, will be enough to ensure this is good. As long as the filler stuff isn't bad.

I have no faith this will be any good.

Tasty

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Currently-released behind-the-scenes/marketing videos:








Tasty

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This show should have been called Dance of the Dragons but somebody in HBO's marketing dept probably got too uppity about "Dance" being girly or something, change my mind

Tasty

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spoiler (click to show/hide)
Unless the show covers post-Dance/civil war material, in which case, fair enough.
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Potato

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This show should have been called Dance of the Dragons but somebody in HBO's marketing dept probably got too uppity about "Dance" being girly or something, change my mind
House of the Dragon is a better name. Rolls off the tongue better, much like Game of Thrones was better than A Game of Thrones
Spud

Phoenix Dark

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This show should have been called Dance of the Dragons but somebody in HBO's marketing dept probably got too uppity about "Dance" being girly or something, change my mind
IIRC the initial idea was that they'd do some type of anthology of Targ history, and the question was where they'd start. Aegon's Conquest? Dance Of Dragons? The Young Dragon? And they just happened to pick the Dance, which IMO was the best choice.

They've also talked about an entirely separate show about Dunk & Egg. And while I love Dunk & Egg I just don't think it works on television in this environment, AFTER two shows with dragons. Following that up with a show with no dragons, lots of walking around/dialogue, etc...I'm not sure that works unless you just nail everything (casting, dialogue, etc)
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Tasty

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Really good first episode, but looking forward to things getting going.

Borealis

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Great ep. HBO costume department will never be defeated.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The C-section. :holeup
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Bebpo

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First ep was ehhh, ok.

Kind of boring. Wasted like half the ep on a zzzzz jousting festival. Matt Smith is awfully miscast as Daemon. Visually looked pretty nice. The story is great and complete unlike GoT, so it really just depends on the pace of this. Stuff like the joust will kill the show's pacing. Otoh I'm not expecting it to be an exciting two season thing or anything. I think three seasons, maybe four MAX would work. If they're trying to stretch this beyond four seasons it will be awful. Even four will be pretty slow.


Novella spoilers
spoiler (click to show/hide)
From my vague recollection of the novella, I thought Daemon was supposed to be a cool badass rugged pirate-y character you root for. I don't remember him being this unlikeable pretty boy.

But mostly I thought they'd start the war at the end of ep1 to kick it off. I reaaaaaaaaaally hope the entire S1 isn't setting up the war and the king doesn't die starting off the succession war in the final ep of the season or something. Would make S1 pretty dull.

Nothing interesting really happens in the novella until the king dies. Maybe he'll die at the end of ep2. Fingers crossed.

Shit, just refreshed a summary of the novella. They are totally going to drag the setup out the entire S1. Were not even in the right timeline and need a timeskip just to get to the INTRO of the story omg. Maybe I should just come back at S2 lol.

Actually after picking up the book again, I realized I never read Fire & Blood. Just the Dance of the Dragons novella. So this show is starting at the novella before that which is about 40-50 pages. Damn. Dance of the Dragons ain't starting until S2. That was what I was looking forward to seeing.

Edit: Yeah GRRM confirmed three days ago the war doesn't even start until S2. Can't say I'm too interested in this season. Will come back next year.

Quote
A lot of things are happening in Westeros as a continent, and there’s stuff going on all over, but what House of the Dragon mostly concerns us with is the issue of succession to the Iron Throne. Of course, the show starts in 101 AC at the Great Council, which the old King Harris has called to let the Lords of the realm advise him on who should succeed to the Iron throne after he dies.

Then the war itself breaks out in 129 AC, so we have basically a 28-year run just in the first season here. And you see the various characters introduced and the conflict begin to grow, the seeds of what will eventually be a war. But not right away. The seeds grow and feelings intensify and grievances are collected and all of that stuff, so, yeah, there’s a lot going on there.
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« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 01:15:37 AM by Bebpo »

Joe Molotov

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How much incest was in the first episode?
©@©™

Boredfrom

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Quote
I thought Daemon was supposed to be a cool badass rugged pirate-y character you root for.

You are really confusing some characters from another.

Tasty

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How much incest was in the first episode?

There was a creepy moment involving Matt Smith and his 10 year old niece, but it was almost blink and you'll miss it.

Polident Hive

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Pretty good first episode. Wasn’t deep into the lore to know how this’ll progress so it’s all new to me.

Seen criticism about the cast being unattractive for Targs. No comment there. But throughout I was surprised to see recognizable actors. GOT had a few, notably Sean Bean. Here, I’m like that’s Patty Considine. That’s Doctor Who. That’s The Lizard. That’s Sonoya Mizuno. That’s Graham McTavish.

People also complained that Rhaegar’s actor in GOT wasn’t attractive enough. Sure. Whatever.

BrokenVerses

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They have a complete story to follow here with the "Dance of the Dragons," right?

Meanwhile with Game of Thrones/ASOIAF the actual author still hasn't figured out how to finish it  :lol

Bebpo

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They have a complete story to follow here with the "Dance of the Dragons," right?

Meanwhile with Game of Thrones/ASOIAF the actual author still hasn't figured out how to finish it  :lol

Yeah, it's a complete story and it's pretty good. Honestly the only thing that could kill it is bad execution (pacing, directing, acting).


Quote
spoiler (click to show/hide)
I thought Daemon was supposed to be a cool badass rugged pirate-y character you root for.
[close]

You are really confusing some characters from another.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I think I just saw him as the badass of the story and most interesting and likeable character. Whereas Matt Smith's take just seems like a pompous fool.

But then again, S2 will be a 20+ year older version of the character, so probably will be pretty different when the war starts.
[close]

Boredfrom

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Dude, you are truly confusing some characters for another.

I mean, he gets better but I dunno I will say likeable.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 04:37:35 PM by Boredfrom »

HaughtyFrank

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Liked the first episode. Felt almost like a statement that Game of Thrones is back with the gore and fucking like it's everyday business. Despite how many shows were described as "_____ wants to make their own Game of Thrones" none really did it like this.

Phoenix Dark

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Very strong first ep. Pacing and dialogue reminded me of Thrones S1. I liked the slow buildup of dread and suspense as it went on, culminating in the most disturbing birth scene I've seen in a long time.

They established the players and stakes very well.

I'm not worried about that GRRM quote btw

spoilers
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moving the initial Dance battles to S2 makes sense considering S1 will first focus on the War For The Stepstones. There's going to be plenty of war. And we know this season basically ends with the first dragon-on-dragon battle so yea...it'll work.
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Tasty

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First ep was ehhh, ok.

Kind of boring. Wasted like half the ep on a zzzzz jousting festival.

Dude after S7 and 8 flying by at 9000 MPH I'm actually really relieved we have dialogue scenes with good writing, dramatic stakes, and a runtime longer than 1.5 minutes at best.

A slow pace wouldn't bother me.

*But*

I do expect at least one significant plot turn every episode. Each camp of characters needs to advance some way every episode. Early Thrones excelled at this.



One major bummer I had was no cool opening. They basically gave up trying to make something as memorable as GoT's opening credits, but I still would have liked to have seen *something.* Opening credits being a dying art makes me really sad.

Bebpo

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I do wonder if the show will have a problem in that I can't think of a single audience likeable character in the whole story. There's no Jon Snow, Ned Stark, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion kind of characters to get behind.

It kinda seems like it could be a 8 season long show that's like GoT with all the lead characters removed and only the side characters.

It's a good story but everyone is pretty grey area. The novella is more like watching a sporting match "team 1 takes first base, team 2 counters with a fastball, etc..." partly in how it's being told stylistically, but also partly because there are no PoV type characters to get behind.

Tasty

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Info about which ep the timejump happens, via The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/aug/22/house-of-the-dragon-review-this-game-of-thrones-prequel-is-gorgeous-opulent-television

Quote from: The Guardian
Having skipped forward a few years here and there, it jumps forward another decade for episode six, during which time everyone has a lot of children. (There is as much childbirth in this as an episode of One Born Every Minute, though oddly enough, it lacks that warm fuzzy feeling.) A handful of the characters are recast as adults, and the action is reset, though not as definitively as it first seems. This leap might have been jarring, but this is so elegant and proper, so obviously well-made, that there was no real chance of a misstep like that. House of the Dragon is gorgeous, opulent television, cinematic and big, pushing at the edges of what TV can do. It is just that little bit less fun than its predecessor.
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Sounds good to me. :idont

Tasty

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I do wonder if the show will have a problem in that I can't think of a single audience likeable character in the whole story. There's no Jon Snow, Ned Stark, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion kind of characters to get behind.

It kinda seems like it could be a 8 season long show that's like GoT with all the lead characters removed and only the side characters.

It's a good story but everyone is pretty grey area. The novella is more like watching a sporting match "team 1 takes first base, team 2 counters with a fastball, etc..." partly in how it's being told stylistically, but also partly because there are no PoV type characters to get behind.

I like Viserys, I like Rhaenyra. Interested to learn more about The Queen Who Never Was. Daemon is fun to watch and not Joffrey-levels of hateable (yet?)

Almost every "good"/likable character in GoT did some fucked up shit at some point (except Ned obvsly). I expect HotD will be similar even if the characters are starting from a greyer position than the Stark children.

Tasty

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My question is over whether normies will stick around without a clear Hero's Journey storyline like Thrones had in Jon. I think his plot kinda anchored the whole thing for most bro-types who might have checked out on fantasy schtick and political scheming otherwise.

That may be why they threw that extremely forced (but apparently GRRM approved) dialog at the end about Aegon dreaming of White Walkers.

HaughtyFrank

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One major bummer I had was no cool opening. They basically gave up trying to make something as memorable as GoT's opening credits, but I still would have liked to have seen *something.* Opening credits being a dying art makes me really sad.

You're in luck, it'll have an opening sequence starting with episode 2

Quote
Condal and Sapochnik told ET the House of Dragon theme song and opening credits will be unveiled for the first time in episode 2, explaining “it was a creative choice,” to leave them out of the series premiere.

“It seemed important that once the curtain went up so to speak, having a title sequence felt like an indulgence,” they told ET. “We wanted to get on and tell the story.”

https://decider.com/2022/08/22/house-of-the-dragon-opening-sequence/

Boredfrom

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My question is over whether normies will stick around without a clear Hero's Journey storyline like Thrones had in Jon. I think his plot kinda anchored the whole thing for most bro-types who might have checked out on fantasy schtick and political scheming otherwise.

That may be why they threw that extremely forced (but apparently GRRM approved) dialog at the end about Aegon dreaming of White Walkers.

My impression is that this is a:

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Protagonist(s) journey to villain. They are marketing is really hammering (maybe unwisely given the last season reception of Dany) the girl power aspect when in the end it becomes “everyone was a giant scumbag”. They can pull it off it is a Breaking Bad situation. Maybe they should have promoted more like Yellowjackets with Dragons.
[close]

Normies are willing to see cynical and borderline misanthrope works as long there is a right hook.

Phoenix Dark

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I do wonder if the show will have a problem in that I can't think of a single audience likeable character in the whole story. There's no Jon Snow, Ned Stark, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion kind of characters to get behind.

It kinda seems like it could be a 8 season long show that's like GoT with all the lead characters removed and only the side characters.

It's a good story but everyone is pretty grey area. The novella is more like watching a sporting match "team 1 takes first base, team 2 counters with a fastball, etc..." partly in how it's being told stylistically, but also partly because there are no PoV type characters to get behind.

This will be the flaw of the show. There are great characters, from ones in the first ep to others that will come later on (Cregan Stark, Aemond Targaryen, etc) but these are historical characters and legends more than well fleshed out characters like in the ASOIAF books. Nobody has a POV chapter. That being said the writing in this first ep was pretty strong and I'm sold that they can bring all these characters to life. Viewers will be picking sides. Rhaenyra is great character and all the Shakespearian drama is gonna work, based on that first ep.
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Polident Hive

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My ignorant perspective from the first episode: the most heroic good guy was the Dornish jouster. Could be how little you see of him. What little there was, he’s honorable-ish.

Phoenix Dark

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Tasty

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One major bummer I had was no cool opening. They basically gave up trying to make something as memorable as GoT's opening credits, but I still would have liked to have seen *something.* Opening credits being a dying art makes me really sad.

You're in luck, it'll have an opening sequence starting with episode 2

Quote
Condal and Sapochnik told ET the House of Dragon theme song and opening credits will be unveiled for the first time in episode 2, explaining “it was a creative choice,” to leave them out of the series premiere.

“It seemed important that once the curtain went up so to speak, having a title sequence felt like an indulgence,” they told ET. “We wanted to get on and tell the story.”

https://decider.com/2022/08/22/house-of-the-dragon-opening-sequence/

As PD said, we back! :rejoice


jorma

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yeah, saw the first ep and i'm IN


benjipwns

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Heard this show was problematic:

HaughtyFrank

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Isn't there a lot of fantasy without it? I doubt the upcoming LOTR show will have any

Just watch what fits your taste  :elon

HardcoreRetro

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Any fiction is fantasy. It's as if the setting and the content of the story are two different things.


Nintex

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Caught up with this, the first Episode was great.

Hopefully they keep this up and not every good actor dies before we reach the end like last time.
🤴

benjipwns

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Just watch what fits your taste  :elon
:jeanluc

But I'll be left out of the conversation. :social


Nintex

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🤴

Phoenix Dark

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Tasty

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Surprised it didn't happen Monday or Tuesday tbh. There's no universe this would be cancelled. Even if <50k people watched it WBD would soft reboot it for S2 and keep it going. So much is riding on it right now.


Phoenix Dark

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Surprised it didn't happen Monday or Tuesday tbh. There's no universe this would be cancelled. Even if <50k people watched it WBD would soft reboot it for S2 and keep it going. So much is riding on it right now.

Agreed I think this was getting a second season regardless. However I think the numbers will certainly impact whether HBO proceeds with the multiple prequel shows they also have in development, plus one sequel show.

-A show detailing Corlys Velaryon's famous nine voyages
-A show about Nymeria and her 10,000 Ships, which conquered Dorne
-A show about Flea Bottom in King's Landing. I suppose about crime and fuckery in the city
-A show about Dunk & Egg
-Jon Snow sequel show

If I was HBO I'd cancel all of those projects, personally. Dunk & Egg is a great series of short stories and the best idea of those five...but ultimately all of them have the same problem: no dragons. Sure there are could be dragons in a Sea Snake (Corlys Velaryon) show since it's set during the time of dragons, but I'm gonna assume the focus will be on his journeys, not the Targaryens.

I think the lesson is that people want dragons, and they really like Targaryens. To me, this means that if there's to be another prequel it should be about Aegon's Conquest. That gives you three dragons, including the biggest dragon. And it gives you two main female characters.

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Tasty

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Eh season 1 didn't have dragons and it did fine. Most of S2-4 didn't have bigass fire breathing lizards, either IIRC.

It's somewhat unfortunate HBO chose HotD as the next show as that does kinda lock the franchise into being just "MUH DRAGONS" from now until the end of time I guess. I think they had the right instinct initially with trying super non-Thrones ideas.

Nintex

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I don't think it's just dragons either, what mostly sunk Game of Thrones is that all the good actors died off as the series progressed.
At some point Peter Dinklage simply had no one left to do a Tyrion contest of wits scene with. What really made the show work was the great performances of Charles Dance, Stephen Dillane, Conleth Hill, Lena Heady and so many others.
In the end the likes of Kit Harrington and Emilia Clarke were left, who outside of growing up doing Game of Thrones, had almost no acting experience while having to do ever more important scenes. Some of the youngsters got better at acting, and some or them lost interest in acting or simply didn't get any better than when they started.

With the new series I was surprised to see such a stellar cast again, hopefully the king doesn't die too soon in the season.
🤴

jorma

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i also don't think the dragons had much to do with it, a stellar cast combined with unfettered depravity and a bit of booba are my reasons

and maybe also that the best characters weren't necessarily the "good guys" (like say joffrey baratheon)


Rahxephon91

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Yeah I don't think Dragons or the Targaryens are the appeal of the show at all.

I think good fantasy taken seriously is the appeal. I think people liked the interwoven large cast of characters and plots. There's always a character or plot you'll like even if you don't like some of the others.

I just see diminishing returns after HOTD, which to me it's appeal is it's another round of the game.

None of the other ideas sound appealing at all.

Polident Hive

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Everybody wants Aegon's Conquest but it sounds expensive as hell. People into the lore know better. If they ever wanted to do a movie, it sounds ripe.

Tasty

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They should just say fuck the book canon and do a show 250 years after the finale of Thrones.

Prequels are always gonna be ehhhh no matter how much you gussy them up since we know the ending and even if we assume every character in all the fiction we consume will die *sometime*, that's a lot different than coming to a prequel knowing these guys are all long-dead in the media you just watched (in this case GoT). See my friend's tweet about Joffrey summing up the entire show in 3 sentences from earlier in the thread.

That's also kinda why S5-8 were so exciting for *everyone*, book readers included. No one really knew how it was going to end. That's a competitive storytelling advantage that prequels will never ever have.

Doing a far-future spinoff would also allow them to retcon basically everything in S8.

"Yeah we tried that Bran thing for a few years but it was fuckin' dumb." Maybe a better reason for democratic election suddenly being a known and acceptable concept in Westeros could be invented.

"The history books say Arya Stark killed the Night King, buuuuut... *flashback* it was actually Jon Snow!"

These are all really dumb ideas because I'm the one making them, but I totally believe a far-future sequel show could be a way to fix the remaining fan ire over S7-8. If not completely, then as a salve at least.

I want to see what's happening in Westeros *now.* And since I've seen Thrones already, my mind's playhead is firmly set at ~300 AC. HotD will be some fun drama and action but I can't get over the feeling I already know how it ends.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 06:11:57 PM by Tasty »

Polident Hive

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When GOT ended and spin offs were tossed around, that far future pitch was popular. With the idea that it wouldn’t be traditional fantasy. More akin to a post industrial revolution state or wild west fantasy hybrid deal.

Tasty

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When GOT ended and spin offs were tossed around, that far future pitch was popular. With the idea that it wouldn’t be traditional fantasy. More akin to a post industrial revolution state or wild west fantasy hybrid deal.


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm nah I don't want it going down the Final Fantasy route. They can stay pre-industrial for a couple more centuries IMO. So much of the tech and magic they already have is unexplored that I have to imagine the inhabitants of Westeros and Essos are like the Roman Empire back in the day. "Ehh steel is kinda shitty by default and too much work to figure out how to refine, let's focus our energies elsewhere."

There's also the theory that even if a society discovers steel refinement, an industrial revolution is predicated on consumers buying steel goods, so most older economic systems wouldn't have facilitated such a revolution anyways even if the technology was known and available.

Tasty

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Episode 2 tho, gotdamn


Tasty

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That one little scene with Rhaenys and Rhaenyra was better than the entirety of S7 and 8 put together.

Tasty

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Was pretty lame using the Game of Thrones theme outright (just with new, more confusing visuals) after the initial 10 seconds of "holy shit."

Should have been at least a cover or remix or something. It's not something I'll hate hearing going forward, but was hoping for something a little fresher.

Bebpo

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Ep2 was a lot better than ep1. Good ep. On board with this now and like some of the stuff they're adding to the story.

Really nice art direction too for the CG stuff.

Tasty

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The CG was absolutely incredible this episode.

How is HBO doing more on $20 million than Disney at 10x times that?

Borealis

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Was pretty lame using the Game of Thrones theme outright (just with new, more confusing visuals) after the initial 10 seconds of "holy shit."

Should have been at least a cover or remix or something. It's not something I'll hate hearing going forward, but was hoping for something a little fresher.

Another great ep, but yeh surprised they didn't use the assiociated Targaryen themes.




Phoenix Dark

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Good episode. Definitely felt very season one-esque, in a good way. Multiple dialogue heavy scenes, back to back to back. I'd imagine some people who prefer the stupidity of later GoT may not have liked it, but I thought it was dope. My only quibble is the pacing is so swift it hurts some character development that could be done. Criston Cole goes from being selected to the KG to rounding up a force for the Hand, to go off to Dragonstone. Within like 10 minutes. Having a scene of Crison actually joining the KG, perhaps even sparring with one of his new follow knights, would have made sense. Would have been a good way to build character and add some action.

That being said the Dragonstone scene was great and paid off all the dialogue stuff.

Eh season 1 didn't have dragons and it did fine. Most of S2-4 didn't have bigass fire breathing lizards, either IIRC.

It's somewhat unfortunate HBO chose HotD as the next show as that does kinda lock the franchise into being just "MUH DRAGONS" from now until the end of time I guess. I think they had the right instinct initially with trying super non-Thrones ideas.
S1 ratings were rather average until the end of the season though, and jumped for episode 10 after Ned's death. Ending that ep with the dragon birth was a major reason more people tuned in for S2. Ratings wise the Red Wedding is what really set things off pop culture wise and made it THE show, but that season (S3) was also the first time we saw the dragons in action. People were waiting for the dragons to get bigger and for Dany to arrive in Westeros.

If I had to pitch a prequel idea without dragons, not counting Dunk & Egg, I'd go with the Young Dragon - Kng Daeron Targaryen's invasion and conquest of Dorne. Could be super cool, and you'd only need one season, maybe two.
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Tasty

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Daeron would be great because of the built in expectation subversion of how it ends.