Author Topic: Random talk thread: It just keeps happening  (Read 3330947 times)

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31680 on: July 11, 2018, 03:40:12 PM »
Today is Free Slurpee Day. Go get your free Slurpee.

Don't get Crunch Berry flavor. They successfully managed to make ice taste like actual corn/rice cereal. It is horrible.
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shosta

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31681 on: July 11, 2018, 08:40:12 PM »
"Hello I am interested in web assembly because it's an efficient cross platform virtual machine"
"DON'T WORRY, WEBASM WON'T KILL JAVASCRIPT! JAVASCRIPT IS REALLY GOOD AND HERE TO STAY!"
"What?"
"WEB ASSEMBLY IS A *COMPLEMENT* TO JAVASCRIPT FOR SPECIFIC USE CASES, YOUR JAVASCRIPT SKILLS WILL STILL BE USEFUL!"
"I just want to learn details about web assembly, please..."
"JAVASCRIPT AND WEB ASSEMBLY WILL LIVE TOGETHER, ANY QUESTIONS?"
 :beli
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Kara

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31682 on: July 12, 2018, 12:13:09 PM »
In The Americans their daughter's pastor gives her a copy of Capital which she reads (unrealistic TV shows smh) and when Keri Russell finds her reading it she tells her to keep it on a shelf with similar books (like this kid has Say's Political Economy on hand ::)) so that it won't stand out.

That's what my parents' library growing up was like (and mine is now too). :ohhh

shosta

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31683 on: July 12, 2018, 12:21:52 PM »
I was trying to bait tasty meat with that post but no, it just seems like every "tutorial" or "talk" that's nominally about web assembly is an extended apologetics tour for javascript that's meant to deal with web programmers' insecurity. The spec is very well written and so is browser documentation but it would be nice to have some predigested material out there.
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Momo

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31684 on: July 12, 2018, 12:47:49 PM »
I was trying to bait tasty meat with that post but no
I was going to make a joke, but then I realized I would need to pay attention to front end development  :nope

benjipwns

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31685 on: July 12, 2018, 12:51:09 PM »
let me whip you up something in php, maybe with some VBScript and ActiveX apps built in

shosta

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31686 on: July 12, 2018, 01:39:16 PM »
wasm isn't super mature now tho afaik
I agree. But things mature as they are used and abused. Some of us are early adopters, out of enthusiasm and love.

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and it's not really something you write yourself, but you compile whatever shit you have to wasm
Someone has to write those compilers.

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right now only non-GC PLs can do that well, i.e. rust, c, c++
I don't know the veracity of this claim but surely this list proves otherwise:
https://github.com/appcypher/awesome-wasm-langs/blob/master/README.md

The commentary on the maturity of these backends is purely opinion, btw.

Quote
but you want your web shit to be in a safe language, which only leaves rust
This is a religious definition of safe that conveniently excludes every programming language but Rust. I can tell you that I have been using Rust since mid 2014 and the meaning of safe is specifically "memory safety", and "concurrency safety", but only the specific kind of protection against concurrency that results in memory errors, not actual concurrency issues like resource contention, deadlocking, livelocking, and protocol adherence. My experience is that
1) systems programmers who have already committed themselves to a language like C or Rust don't, in practice, actually make the kinds of memory usage errors that Rust protects you against (buffer overruns? returning references to stack frame data? who does this?) and
2) Rust is woefully insufficient for a lot of the systems programming that people actually do. To date, there is still no stable interface for allocating n bytes from the heap. (The HEAP global constant is still feature gated and nightly only). There is still no way to write generics over constant integers, which is one of the most useful ways to use templates in c++. The (ab)use of tagged unions makes the tag opaque, which is totally insufficient for a robust system that might need to check for memory corruption (unsafe unions were a very recent addition). Iterators are by reference because the language has been inflicted with C++'s RAII madness, but there is no by value iterator which is what I'd actually want for writing byte or char stream manipulators. Conditional error handling barely exists (if let is a monstrosity). There is no &out. Etc.

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in the future wasm will support GCs so you can use more PLs to compile to wasm but probably none will be as efficient as rust
There is some difficulty currently in implementing precise collectors over the truly braindead design of the stack machine architecture. The stack is not inspectable at all, so you have no idea if references to objects still exist. But the simplest way to overcome this is to simply write your own stack in linear memory, or write a "shadow stack" in linear memory for such values that might escape the lexical extent of the function call (such escape analysis is par for any basic compiler already, i.e. in the stack allocation of closures or small lists). This second implementation is especially interesting because it still exposes small, data churning web assembly routines to JIT compilation by the VM (which is the primary benefit of not having an inspectable stack).

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i think you can write wasm directly, but it's kind of like assembly, not very practical for writing large apps
A large application, no, but I just wrote a small implementation of malloc in web assembly last night because I didn't want to have to figure out how to link to a libc web assembly module and it wasn't so difficult at all. Didn't have to think about registers or anything. I would recommend that any junior developer should implement malloc at least once so that they understand what they are saying when they claim "garbage collection" is "slow", and also understand why malloc is also slow and potentially slower for specific use cases.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 01:46:02 PM by kris »
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shosta

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31687 on: July 12, 2018, 02:41:29 PM »
I was talking about C, C++, Rust. C and C++ are both considered unsafe.
This might seem like quibbling to you but, no, C and C++ are considered to be memory unsafe. Shortening this to "unsafe" is a kind of rhetorical trick used primarily to deceive and indoctrinate people. It is slick salesmanship. Using C is no more "unsafe" than shaving is, or using a bike without training wheels, especially since it has been 60 years since operating systems with process isolation and virtual memory have become commonplace. A notion of safety can only be defined relative to a notion of danger and harm.

I have a good metaphor for this, actually. Let's consider two different notions of cleanliness, relative to the danger of getting sick. A myopic germaphobe, of which many exist, might be obsessed with washing their hands and using hand sanitizer. They might invest an extraordinary amount of energy in doing this, like carrying hand sanitizer everywhere, applying it every hour, and developing obsessive compulsive handwashing. They will feel satisfied and productive in their goal after doing this, even if it has unintended side effects like giving their kids allergies or ruining the skin on their hands. A person who is actually interested in meaningful cleanliness for the purpose of reducing sickness nationally will think much bigger: public health standards for restaurants and food distributors, clean public water supplies, reducing hospital crowding, investing in R&D for new vaccinations and antibiotics, mandatory vaccinations, etc. Both of these people will say they are interested in being "clean", but only one of them is a net benefit to society, and the other one is kind of a freak.

Quote
Yeah this basically isn't true though. Experienced programmers make plenty of mistakes that Rust does prevent. This has been discussed to death on the internet since at least 2015.
I assure you that the debate over memory safety and programmer error is a little older than 2015... Try 70 years ago with the first garbage collector. Anyway, a myth with large mindshare is a myth nonetheless. Can you tell me which errors Rust prevents that experienced programmers routinely make? If you say iterator invalidation, smh.

In general I think programming language implementors have this habit of making simple mistakes impossible and then punting on the actual hard issues. To illustrate this, look at Valgrind, the memory safety toolkit of C++ fame. Rust bakes about half of Valgrind right into the language semantics and makes it totally unnecessary. That's a win. But if you examine the other half of Valgrind, you see that's the "actual hard stuff".
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Atramental

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31688 on: July 12, 2018, 02:49:25 PM »
Programming languages.  :nope

shosta

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31689 on: July 12, 2018, 02:59:55 PM »
i fucking love the fact that you tried to trigger tasty with javascript but the moment i mention rust you have an aneurysm :sabu
got me lol

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im not gonna dig shit up for you... all i know is that from the discussions i've read, rust folks seem to reason well, and C/C++ folks were like "git gud"
c'mon, dude. I just said I've been using rust since mid 2014. That's before the 1.0 release. I remember when strcat killed libgreen by pointing out Go's hotsplit problem, the rise and fall of all the inheritance RFCs, the critical choice of turning unboxed closures into traits, etc. Please give me the benefit of the doubt that I know the typical selling points regurgitated by fans, especially since I was one of those people myself!

Quote
intermediate C++ programmers, which I assume you are, are always insecure as fuck when you bring up anything that might make C++ look obsolete
You seem to think disputing claims and making technical arguments is being insecure. :P

I'm a little salty, yeah. I had a lot of hope for Rust and it let me down the deeper I got, and the more I needed to do complicated things with it. The language team is often driven by popular demand and focuses a lot of unnecessary energy into features to satisfy the web crowd it has drawn, while stagnating on its main goal of helping the programmer manage memory.
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Madrun Badrun

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31690 on: July 12, 2018, 08:55:42 PM »
You guys are actually discussing rust?  We live in a C++ world.  Forget the rest.

Atramental

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31691 on: July 13, 2018, 09:54:15 AM »
After my date last night I had to go back to my office and finish up some work.

And because I had a couple of drinks and was super tired I ended up sleeping at my office (first time I’ve done this) just because it would be safer than trying to drive home tired and buzzed.

Now I’m well rested and finishing up my work for Friday despite not sleeping on a bed. :doge
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 10:02:59 AM by Atramental »

agrajag

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31692 on: July 13, 2018, 10:16:02 AM »
Fortran lol

Brehvolution

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31693 on: July 13, 2018, 11:19:21 AM »
3 of my daughter's classmates, who all just graduated high school, were in a car that hit a motorcycle head on and killed the 2 people on the bike. They were the parents of 3 kids under the age of 10. 2 of the students, including the driver, had full scholarships to college in the fall. The joint was still burning on the floor when the cops got there.  :'(

It always seems like when you are the most comfortable, life has a way showing you how quickly things can change.
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Momo

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31694 on: July 13, 2018, 12:04:01 PM »
fucking hell man rip

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31695 on: July 13, 2018, 12:14:48 PM »
Of course Arvie would like that post. :doge
que

Madrun Badrun

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31696 on: July 13, 2018, 12:24:57 PM »
It was a support like.  Not a like like. 

Atramental

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31697 on: July 13, 2018, 12:25:51 PM »
I'm not gonna lie, I'm kinda envious of KiwiFarms' different "like" buttons.  :doge

Momo

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31698 on: July 13, 2018, 02:40:50 PM »
demi should add a dislike button as a social experiment :doge

Coax

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31699 on: July 13, 2018, 03:02:09 PM »
demi should add a dislike button as a social experiment :doge

Add them all while he's at it.



Disagree x 2 Like x 5 Optimistic x 3 Deviant x 1


shosta

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31700 on: July 13, 2018, 03:03:38 PM »
 :yuck Filler x 12
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Madrun Badrun

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31701 on: July 13, 2018, 03:05:52 PM »
demi should add a dislike button as a social experiment :doge

I'm too sensitive for this challenge. 

agrajag

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31702 on: July 13, 2018, 03:46:20 PM »
I occasionally feel like hitting regular "like" on sad Facebook stories just to half troll but as often as I am inside edgy teens the edgy teen inside of me just isn't very active.

I see people regular like sad stories on FB all the time, and I'm sure they're not trolling, just contextually challenged.

Mupepe

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31703 on: July 13, 2018, 03:47:35 PM »
I do it all the time because I'm just too lazy to hold my finger for an extra second.  I'm also pretty sure that the generic old like is simply a show of support so a sad story just means you sympathize... or some shit.  Or sometimes I'm just agreeing to the note that the poster adds when they share the story.  Are these rules written anywhere?  If not, it should be.  I'll create an FAQ.  BRB.

Kara

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31704 on: July 13, 2018, 11:02:48 PM »
How bad is Noble Roman's? One just opened here and I'm assured that it's "world famous" by their obviously reliable advertisements but when I looked it up I saw it was from Indiana, the state that gave us Mike Piss and [list of bad stuff].[/list]

Joe Molotov

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31705 on: July 13, 2018, 11:05:55 PM »
How bad is Noble Roman's? One just opened here and I'm assured that it's "world famous" by their obviously reliable advertisements but when I looked it up I saw it was from Indiana, the state that gave us Mike Piss and [list of bad stuff].[/list]

I did a Google search and their CEO hasn't publicly used the n-word lately, if that helps.
©@©™

Kara

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31706 on: July 13, 2018, 11:12:18 PM »
The only certainties in life are: death, taxes, and powerful white people saying the N-word. :goty2

Kara

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31707 on: July 15, 2018, 08:49:51 PM »
Noble Roman's update:

I called and placed an order today with their grand opening coupon. They said they only had cheese, pepperoni, and sausage as toppings. "Alright, I guess this is a low-rent Little Caesars," I thought to myself and went against my better judgement.

Drove over to the place to pick it up and discovered it's a pizza place.... in a gas station. :dead :dead :dead

While I'm paying a person who is the kind of person who hangs around gas stations too much tells the cashier, "In 40 years that's the cleanest bathroom I've ever seen!" :holeup

Not sure I even want to bother eating what I bought. :goty2

Joe Molotov

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31708 on: July 15, 2018, 08:51:32 PM »
"Bathrooms so clean, you can eat off them" isn't just their promise, Kara. It's a challenge.
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Kara

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31709 on: July 16, 2018, 02:45:12 AM »
I ate some. There is nothing you can do to me that I have not already done to myself.

On a related note, this episode of Blossom has an actor from Saved by the Bell in it but they aren't playing their character from the show. F*cked up that Fresh Prince of Bel-Air exists in the Blossom multiverse but Saved by the Bell doesn't. :doge

StealthFan

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31710 on: July 16, 2018, 03:13:43 AM »
Read some Eisenhorn and Wheel of Time then fingerblasted my asshole while watching this hot latex slut play with a humongo cock.
reckt

seagrams hotsauce

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31711 on: July 16, 2018, 03:28:07 AM »
TIL toku is cited as the originator on the knowyourmeme page for the drew scanlon blinking gif. salute

Joe Molotov

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31712 on: July 16, 2018, 10:01:21 AM »
Read some Eisenhorn and Wheel of Time then fingerblasted my asshole while watching this hot latex slut play with a humongo cock.

https://www.tor.com/2018/03/05/top-five-worst-moments-of-the-wheel-of-time/
©@©™

shosta

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31713 on: July 16, 2018, 10:29:02 AM »
Ever go to a dumpster to just pick through the garbage people threw out and maybe score a nice, semi water damaged, previously owned woman?  8)
I love this post a lot
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Kara

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31714 on: July 16, 2018, 11:56:07 AM »
Read some Eisenhorn and Wheel of Time then fingerblasted my asshole while watching this hot latex [redacted] play with a humongo cock.

Pontius Glaw would be proud.

warcock

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31715 on: July 17, 2018, 08:16:34 AM »

Kara

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31716 on: July 18, 2018, 11:59:14 AM »
This is the most "popular on Mozilla Pocket" thing I've seen get popular on Mozilla Pocket. :lol

https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/6-things-the-happiest-families-all-have-in-common

Momo

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31717 on: July 18, 2018, 12:35:47 PM »
Ever go to a dumpster to just pick through the garbage people threw out and maybe score a nice, semi water damaged, previously owned woman?  8)
I love this post a lot
You like it when I'm being a degenerate?  8)

shosta

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31718 on: July 18, 2018, 12:56:57 PM »
Giving people a chance and seeing the beauty in all women is the exact opposite of being a degenerate
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Rufus

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31719 on: July 18, 2018, 04:17:58 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future

i spent wayyyyyyyyyy too much time reading this shit
This is the kind of shit that makes me wish for immortality. I wanna see it all. :'(

Rufus

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31720 on: July 18, 2018, 04:50:05 PM »
Yeah, entropy is gonna get us all. Still wanna watch the wheel make its last turn though.   

CatsCatsCats

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31721 on: July 18, 2018, 05:10:33 PM »
That's just when the system reboots the whole thing a la the last question

Valkyrie

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31722 on: July 18, 2018, 05:39:29 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future

i spent wayyyyyyyyyy too much time reading this shit
This shit genuinely terrifies me.

Kara

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Purrp Skirrp

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31724 on: July 19, 2018, 12:38:06 AM »
Looking over my early posts, I like my 2015 self better.
I also thought 2015 was the worst year of my life.





Little did he know, it'd get much, much worse.

shosta

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Momo

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31726 on: July 19, 2018, 01:24:25 AM »
I'm sure there are people looking back at my earliest internet interactions, in unsolved FBI case files.

Momo

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Crash Dummy

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31728 on: July 19, 2018, 01:51:22 AM »
I just found out that some police departments reject applicants who score too high on the IQ test.
anecdotal but i know someone who was rejected as a bus driver after he killed the numeracy and literacy tests (he was an immigrant and didn't have the relevant educational qualifications). when he asked for feedback they flat out told him you're too smart to be here and you wouldn't stick around for very long but we would still incur costs on induction, training etc.

team filler

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31729 on: July 19, 2018, 03:38:20 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future

i spent wayyyyyyyyyy too much time reading this shit
This shit genuinely terrifies me.

Don't worry, we'll be dead by the time any of that stuff happens to us. :rejoice
cum with me if you want to live  :ahnuld2
*****

Valkyrie

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31730 on: July 19, 2018, 05:51:35 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future

i spent wayyyyyyyyyy too much time reading this shit
This shit genuinely terrifies me.

Don't worry, we'll be dead by the time any of that stuff happens to us. :rejoice
What if we were the real stars all along

BlueTsunami

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31731 on: July 19, 2018, 01:02:00 PM »
Got super high last night, stumbled on some BDSM talk stuff on YouTube which then brought me to a woman talking about Big Daddy / Little Girl dynamics. I dont think anything unsettled me like the video she made about her past trauma and how it obviously relatess to that kink (she didnt explicitly state this though). The music, the child like setting, the narration, it all made me so uncomfortable.
:9

Atramental

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31732 on: July 19, 2018, 01:08:52 PM »
Yeah, when I was talking to that one girl on tinder who was into DD/LG stuff she assured me it wasn't because of any past trauma but... i dunno man.  :doge

Momo

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31733 on: July 19, 2018, 01:12:36 PM »
Got super high last night, stumbled on some BDSM talk stuff on YouTube which then brought me to a woman talking about Big Daddy / Little Girl dynamics. I dont think anything unsettled me like the video she made about her past trauma and how it obviously relatess to that kink (she didnt explicitly state this though). The music, the child like setting, the narration, it all made me so uncomfortable.
People still make Bioshock reviews in 2018?

team filler

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31734 on: July 19, 2018, 02:19:41 PM »
Got super high last night, stumbled on some BDSM talk stuff on YouTube which then brought me to a woman talking about Big Daddy / Little Girl dynamics. I dont think anything unsettled me like the video she made about her past trauma and how it obviously relatess to that kink (she didnt explicitly state this though). The music, the child like setting, the narration, it all made me so uncomfortable.
link?
*****

BlueTsunami

  • The Muffin Man
  • Senior Member
Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31735 on: July 19, 2018, 02:23:12 PM »
Got super high last night, stumbled on some BDSM talk stuff on YouTube which then brought me to a woman talking about Big Daddy / Little Girl dynamics. I dont think anything unsettled me like the video she made about her past trauma and how it obviously relatess to that kink (she didnt explicitly state this though). The music, the child like setting, the narration, it all made me so uncomfortable.
link?

:9

Momo

  • Nebuchadnezzar
  • Senior Member
Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31736 on: July 19, 2018, 02:30:19 PM »
yeah I dont need these particular bad feels right now :lol

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31737 on: July 19, 2018, 05:07:18 PM »
Joining momo in solidarity in not clicking that
每天生气

StealthFan

  • Swings Both Ways
  • Senior Member
Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31738 on: July 19, 2018, 05:24:50 PM »
I can fap to this  :woody
reckt

Mupepe

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Re: New Random Talk Thread: Let the Bottom-Feeding Commence!
« Reply #31739 on: July 19, 2018, 07:24:22 PM »
Fuck. I got some kinks but that was too real. The music didn’t help.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
still hot when they call me daddy tho  :-[
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