Author Topic: International Politics Thread - Disease and Disaster  (Read 1611985 times)

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Mandark

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lol greenwald

Mandark

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greenwald calling for self-examination and an end to name-calling mwahahahaha

Brehvolution

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"You can't just call a racist a racist and fascist a fascist and expect them not to vote for a racist fascist!"  :doge
©ZH

Mandark

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That video is just "The western media sees Bolsonaro through the prism of Trump, but that's a big mistake... in conclusion, the underlying forces that led to Trump and the solutions to defeat him are exactly the same as with Bolsonaro. Also throw Brexit in there."

:derp

Tiops

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I think Glenn is right. I mentioned this in another thread, but I have a Brazilian buddy who lives in US. He absolutely despises Trump, yet he supported Bolsonaro. And my buddy is definitely does not belong to the white ruling class. I think people underestimate just how desperate the folks in countries like Brazil are. Those kind if people are always vulnerable for an authoritarian strongman to swoop in and take control. Plus, I have a theory that most people have an innate desire for someone to lord over them and make decisions for them.

I don't believe the voters in Brazil are a direct equivalent of Trump voters.

That's a good analysis. People are definitely desperate here, and the left likes to pretend everything is fine when they're in charge. But as said before, most of us do not want a dictator, fascism or whatever. But security issues here do need a firm stance, and that's why he won.

Nintex

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Democracies in the globalized world made a big mistake. They took away social security, jobs, healthcare and even housing. And handed it all to the banks and corporations.
What they didn't take away were voting rights. So what's an evicted, sick and/or unemployed pissed off citizen going to vote for? The guy that promises to lob a grenade into parliament.

The establishment then turns to the media that support and depend on their funding (and the business interests that support the establishment) to 'smear' this challenger, which only makes him look stronger in the eyes of the public and the establishment more desperate.

Trump was the only candidate that literally said this to African Americans on the campaign trail. "You're getting shot, your schools are bad, you're are unemployed... what the hell do you have to lose?"
In Brazil, if you're getting murdered and fucked over anyway why not take a chance with Bolsonaro? What's the worse thing that could happen to you if you already live in shitty conditions?

And the solution tot his? Well the political elite has started to target extremist media outlets and social media first. But sooner or later they will simply go for the voting rights instead.
Deny the poor and disenfranchised their votes. Perhaps tie the ability to vote to credit ratings.
🤴

agrajag

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I don't think he's stupid, he is very smart. He has a humiliation fetish, and he found a way to get a steady source of verbal abuse here on The Bore without having to pay for it. I see what you're doing Nintex




Nintex

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why are you so goddamn stupid
People want their government to handle 3 things
- Economy
- Security
- Health

Most don't care about 'tone', 'foreign policy' and/or infrastructure (until it collapses).
If a party or government fails in all three sectors they lose the support of their citizens.
That's how the EU got onto the bad side of many people as well. They bungled the Euro crisis, they bungled the migration crisis and in some cases they've ravaged healthcare (Greece for example) through austerity.

You can continue to call people who see this trend that you're missing 'stupid' but that won't change the reality of the situation.
Unless the establishment and especially the left embrace that they've betrayed the working classes they won't win elections.
There's 0 reflection. It's either the Russians or the Nazi's who are to blame for problems that have simple explanations and solutions.
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Nintex

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Which governments cut social security, national healthcare services, and federal housing programs, handed them to the "corporations", and caused a populist demagogue to be elected?
Nearly all governments did post the economic crisis and some before. People were evicted from their homes by the banks, living in tent cities. Savings and pensions went up in flames while the banks got bailed out.
That left a bigger mark than the political elite dares to admit. Most democraties are in various stages of being taken over or being influenced by rightwing/populist movements.

Italy: Lega Nord and their rising star Salvini have overtaken the M5 movement in the most recent polling despite them governing together
Germany: Afd is steadily climbing in the polls, Merkel is losing support left and right
France: If it wasn't for Macron they might've had Le Pen. Macron's approval currently sits at <30%
The Netherlands: Rise of both the PVV(anti-muslim freedom party) and FvD (new rightwing movement)
Greece: Ruling political parties decimated by new populist progressive movement
Hungary: Orban won
Austria: Kurz won
UK: Brexit won
US: Trump won
Brazil: Bolsonaro won
Poland/Baltics: Nationalist movements continue to grow

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How do you hand jobs over to the corporations when corporations are the ones employing people anyway?
The corporations move those jobs abroad to low-wage countries such as China and India leaving large parts of the population unemployed.

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Where's your polling evidence that the people who were most affected economically were the ones who voted for, say, Trump?
Because he won a lot of loyal democratic states by supporting the working classes such as coal miners, small business, construction workers etc. .

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And how do you explain the fact that it's the right wing populists who clamor for voting restriction laws, not the liberal establishment?
Because they can't 'sell' it yet. It took a whiile for the alternative media to be silenced but it's slowly happening. The liberal thinking was that if more people voted they'd be more certain of a victory.
But pissed off people don't vote for liberal policies. In the Netherlands we shortly had a referendum. We held two of them which the establishment both lost and soon after they abolished this method of 'direct democracy'.
Also they tend to centralize decision making. If decisions are made by the UN or Brussels a national vote isn't that important anymore. So they use a different method in voting restrictions, one that makes the votes and voting itself meaningless.
Another example from my country. The new leader of a liberal party has said that he wants EU membership to be added to our constitution so no matter which party gets in power, they can't pull us out of the EU.

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You mentioned that Trump was the only one who offered an alternative to black voters but 88% of them voted for Hillary Clinton; how do you reconcile this?
I mentioned that episode because it was the first time that a populist made the argument: "Vote for me, you got nothing to lose losers" which they usually bring in a much more subtle way.
"Do you think your country has improved?" , "Do you think those other guys will make your lives better?" is usually the rhetoric that they use. As for black voters, we'll see where they stand at the end of Trump's presidency.
They didn't turn out for Hillary like they did for Obama either.

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Almost everything you said is either outright wrong or nonsense.
This is false. What I'm saying is also being said more or less by the likes of Mark Blythe and Ian Bremmer. There's a correlation between the policies enacted by the democracies during the economic crisis (mainly austerity) and their current woes at the hands of populists.
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Cerveza mas fina

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If the left in the EU has failed in anything it is in making people understand that in a free market capitalist world the EU is the best bet to stop bleeding wealth to who knows where and keep it somehow local.

You cant keep the wealth in western europe forever in an open economy.

It just slows the decline though.

Mandark

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As for black voters, we'll see where they stand at the end of Trump's presidency.

Amazing.

Dickie Dee

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Kanye tho
___

agrajag

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Instead of "look at my African American" he'll be using plural

#blexit


kingv

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Someone been crushing up his pills and putting them in his food.

Assimilate

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I think Glenn is right.
No, not entirely. He went off the rails at the end there like others pointed out.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I have a Brazilian buddy who lives in US. He absolutely despises Trump, yet he supported Bolsonaro. And my buddy is definitely does not belong to the white ruling class. I think people underestimate just how desperate the folks in countries like Brazil are.
Right, people here are desperate. Most of the people that voted for Bolsonaro here laugh at Trump (most of them, not all)

Those kind if people are always vulnerable for an authoritarian strongman to swoop in and take control. Plus, I have a theory that most people have an innate desire for someone to lord over them and make decisions for them.
No, no one wants people to make decisions for them. No one wants a dictator.

I don't believe the voters in Brazil are a direct equivalent of Trump voters.
Correct. Like I was saying right above no one here wants a dictator. Most Bolsonaro voters don't even want him to implement half his policies, which is kinda crazy.  Brazilians are very socially liberal. They're free going people that like to have a good time. No one wants a dictator here, but they do crave security, someone strong that will not allow criminals to run rampant.

The left has taken a very lean approach, a very Scandinavian approach to crime and rehabilitation. It works for Scandinavia,  it does not work for Brasil. It's a different culture, totally different people.  This 'human rights' kiddy bullshit has not worked here for the last few decades and it shows.

There is a saying here that 'every Brazilian is born with the inherent right to murder 1 person' . Do you know how ridiculous that is? Come on.

And here is one anectodal for ya - in my brief time here I have not met a single female, not a single one, that hasn't been robbed/assaulted at least 1 time in their lives.

In the states I've known 0 women that have been robbed. fucking 0.

agrajag

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Shut the fuck up you distinguished mentally-challenged fucknugget.

benjipwns

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And here is one anectodal for ya - in my brief time here I have not met a single female, not a single one.

In the states I've known 0 women. fucking 0.
whoops finger slipped

Assimilate

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Shut the fuck up you distinguished mentally-challenged fucknugget.

 :umad

someone didn't get his chicken tendies today

Cerveza mas fina

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Assy is a favelado?

All makes sense

agrajag

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Shut the fuck up you distinguished mentally-challenged fucknugget.

 :umad

someone didn't get his chicken tendies today

I like how you have so little imagination that your pea-sized brain went straight to chicken when I called you a fucknugget.

benjipwns

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I like how you have so little imagination that your pea-sized brain went straight to chicken when I called you a fucknugget.

Assimilate

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Assy is a favelado?

All makes sense
no, I actually live a few blocks away from the apartment of the new elected president  :lol


I like how you have so little imagination that your pea-sized brain went straight to chicken when I called you a fucknugget.
Vagina, you live in fucking Hialeah Florida let's not pretend you are some type of cognitive achievement.

benjipwns

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To be fair you are showing a tendency to go for bird related witticisms, beaks, chicken, suggesting Atra grow a tom like beard to go with his neck tattoo, etc.

kingv

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They say that Rio is great except for all the Cariocas.

agrajag

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I don't live in Hialeah but you live in the favela and have PTSD from getting side swiped by a "liberal trucker."

 :neogaf :umad :umad

Assimilate

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I don't live in Hialeah but you live in the favela and have PTSD from getting side swiped by a "liberal trucker."

 :neogaf :umad :umad

 :umad

Cubano triggered

agrajag

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Look, I know you are not the brightest and you just cracked under the stress of PTSD from living in the slums, your girl getting railed by cariocas and being acosted by liberal truck drivers from Rio. So I will cut you some slack. After all, you can't fix stupid, so why try. I also commend you for your efforts of trying to be Zen and a nice guy, even though you are failing har at both. But keep trying little buddy, one day you will achive Zen.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
when you kys
[close]

 :rejoice

Assimilate

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Dude write an entire paragraph and then says he is not triggered  :jawalrus

agrajag

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Another sad example of the failing Brazilian education system, this dude thinks it's a big undertaking to write a paragraph roasting his ass.

 :neogaf

Cerveza mas fina

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Beef is real itt

Nabbis

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Beef is real itt

It's no-fap november so they need to let it out.

Nintex

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🤴

Nabbis

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No one has who is currently in power has actually spilled the beans that it's suspected to be a military base. That said, it's obvious it's most likely is some type of operation site.

Those titles on Twitter though... Can't get any more sensetional than that.

Great Rumbler

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I wouldn't be at all shocked if a lot of different countries were doing this exact same thing in a lot of different places.
dog

Nabbis

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I wouldn't be at all shocked if a lot of different countries were doing this exact same thing in a lot of different places.

Yeah, most major players probably are. Though there is this specific thing in Finland being a dumbass where they allow foreign interest to own private property near military targets, Russia certainly does not allow it.

Nintex

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Other countries might engage in the same thing but the way the Russians do it deserves some praise.

"OOPS how did this helicopter base get here. don't worry guys nothing to see here just move along"

Just like how they're sometimes amassing tank columns on the Ukraine border and ship them to the rebels by scrubbing off the markers.
"What do you mean modern Russian tanks?" "These are tractor drivers who found these vehicles abandoned by the Ukrainian military" (actual statement by Russian government)
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Nintex

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Quote
EU states that backed the nuclear deal have said they will protect EU firms doing "legitimate" business with Iran.
sanctions annihilated?
The EU vowed to protect Saddam and Ukraine as well.
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Mandark

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jorma

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EU states that backed the nuclear deal have said they will protect EU firms doing "legitimate" business with Iran.
sanctions annihilated?

one can hope, this beef the US has against Iran is the dumbest shit ever.

edit: no wait, that's the beef they have against Cuba. second dumbest shit ever then.

jorma

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it's not dumb, it's part of our continuing effort to consolidate power in the region to our client states Israel and Saudi Arabia and away from Russo-Chinese capital

yes, obviously. that doesn't make it not dumb.

And Cuba is just petty stubbornness, making it even dumber.

jorma

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jorma

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I am willing to metaphorically die on this semantic hill for specious reasons

so does that mean you endorse it, seeing as you tagged yourself SATAN?  :doge

Nintex

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Shortly after this, Putin rolled in and took Crimea and 2 provinces.
The courageous EU diplomats were back in Brussels protesting him.

Although to be fair. Saddam's survival hinged solely on the fact that the EU states thought George, Donald and Dick would not take action without security council approval.
And France and Germany would never be in favor of the war unless the UN inspection team actually found WMD's.
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Mandark

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it's not dumb, it's part of our continuing effort to consolidate power in the region to our client states Israel and Saudi Arabia and away from Russo-Chinese capital

When you feign a certain cynicism towards geopolitics in order to play devil's advocate, but forgot that even evaluated on those terms the policy is still dumb.

:ufup

Mandark

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And France and Germany would never be in favor of the war unless the UN inspection team actually found WMD's.

ya that's exactly the same was "vowed to protect Saddam"



Raist

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EU states that backed the nuclear deal have said they will protect EU firms doing "legitimate" business with Iran.
sanctions annihilated?
The EU vowed to protect Saddam and Ukraine as well.

Wait, what?

Refusing to participate in a phony war is vowing to protect, now?

Mandark

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Also a bunch of EU countries sent troops to Iraq, as well as several countries that would be admitted to the EU the following year.

Mandark

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congrats as passing nintex as the dumbest poster on this page

Nintex

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Gray Connoly had a good point.
The Kashoggi situation and Yemen are not worth a new prolonged conflict and/or losing Saudi Arabia to the Russians.

Not to mention the US's cooperation with the Saudi's has been the same ever since FDR. They wouldn't understand it if the US would certainly change the terms of the arrangement because some people Ree'd on the sidelines.
Making foreign policy decisions on 'feelings' will not make the world a safer and better place.
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TEEEPO

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saudia arabia has been complying with russia to keep oil supplies "stable" for the next 10-20 years, not the united states

Mandark

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Well now you have Nintex on your side.

QED

Nintex

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saudia arabia has been complying with russia to keep oil supplies "stable" for the next 10-20 years, not the united states
That's pretty much the prisoners diliemma that all oil producing countries are in. They have to keep supply/demand balanced otherwise they nuke their economies when the oil price craters.

Remember 'PEAK OIL' oil would dwindle. We'd run out of oil by 2020 based on a formula from the 50's.
Meanwhile, oil production has increased far beyond 'peak oil'.
🤴

Nintex

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Well now you have Nintex on your side.

QED
So you're saying we should drop Saudi Arabia and put them in bed with the Russians and the Chinese because 'FeElInGs?'

what are you going to accuse them of? Bombing civilians, like most members of the UN security council do on a daily basis?
Killing journalists is also quite common. Just look up who survived the Panama Papers investigations or anyone who's ever looked into Moscow bombings.

Keeping the Saudi's around and trying to influence them by working with them is a better solution. They're not completely bonkers yet like Iran is.
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Mandark

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So you're saying we should drop Saudi Arabia and put them in bed with the Russians and the Chinese because 'FeElInGs?'

No, I'm saying you're deeply unintelligent.

Also, remember when you said the "EU vowed to protect Saddam?" What is the point of lies like that which could be easily googled, especially when you already have a reputation for dishonesty? I'm sincerely interested in how you think these things will work out.

TEEEPO

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saudia arabia has been complying with russia to keep oil supplies "stable" for the next 10-20 years, not the united states
is that why the Saudis pumped up oil production after Ukraine (US' interest) and Syria (Saudi's) to tank Russia's economy?

:huh

are you referencing the 2014 price war in response to lost market share from us crude oil production, e.g. fracking? which coincidentally did very little except for harm opec and russia as the united states is now the world leader in crude oil production due to the technological innovations and price cutting that had occured in response to the oversupply of crude oil.



but hey, you seem like a fairly decent google warrior but let me help you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_relations#Saudi_Arabia_and_Russia

Mandark

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If the US was less involved in the ME and the situation were roughly what it is at this point (a series of sectarian conflicts being stoked by two rival oil-producing regional powers), would we look at it and say "hell yeah let's pick a side and get involved in this shit"?

Nintex

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So you're saying we should drop Saudi Arabia and put them in bed with the Russians and the Chinese because 'FeElInGs?'

No, I'm saying you're deeply unintelligent.

Also, remember when you said the "EU vowed to protect Saddam?" What is the point of lies like that which could be easily googled, especially when you already have a reputation for dishonesty? I'm sincerely interested in how you think these things will work out.
That was how it was reported here at the time.

The reailty is that there was some backchannel diplomacy going on to grant Saddam asylum in Europe and/or Russia.
That they wanted Hans Blix to finish his inspections and that they didn't want war in Iraq. Except for Tony Blair, who considered it the next Crusade.
https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/074567-011-A/against-the-iraq-war-dominique-de-villepin/

So in their own words the EU (Germany/France) said they'd protect Iraq from agression, at least until the inspections were finished.

Anyhow, my original point being that even if EU people show up in Teheran like they did in Kiev it doesn't fucking matter.

When the $700 billion military deploys for OPERATION PERSIAN FREEDOM and the US must come together to support their troops it doesn't matter what sort of protections the EU has pledged.
EU protections aren't worth anything. The EU actually has 5 semi-occupied terrorities.

- Half of Cyprus is still occupied by the Turks
- New EU ally Ukraine is partly occupied by Russia (I will not say half, that would be lying because it is less than half than the landmass)
- Candidate member Moldova has a Russian rebel state within its borders
- EU member Georgia is occcupied 1/5th by the Russians
- Candidate member Montenegro managed to barely prevent a Russian sponsored coup

So I'm not sure how the EU will protect anything with regards to Iran if they can't protect the territory that they actually control.

If the US was less involved in the ME and the situation were roughly what it is at this point (a series of sectarian conflicts being stoked by two rival oil-producing regional powers), would we look at it and say "hell yeah let's pick a side and get involved in this shit"?
That was mostly what it was until Clinton in between blowjobs poked the hornets nest with a cruise missile and missed.
🤴

Mandark

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Dude.

You could save so much time and embarrassment with an "ah, I misremembered that."

TEEEPO

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there's a good chance iran's about to be fucked in the ass. russia having bilateral agreements with both iran and saudia arabia as well trump and bolton being in bed with two of said countries points towards a war with iran that russia could conveniently step in and thwart gaining kudos points from the global community and in return, set up shop at the strait of hormuz as a "peacing keeping" measure. at least that's the natural direction i see things heading if we continue down this path.