Author Topic: International Politics Thread - Disease and Disaster  (Read 1291212 times)

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shosta

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Since this is a good segue, frankly I don't understand how any of you still have any kind of optimism left regarding climate and have not adopted a pessimistic fatalism
每天生气

curly

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because while things will certainly be bad the degree of badness is uncertain and depends on the actions we take now

Assimilate

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Assimilate presented a false dilemma to impeach a (specious) argument that the Wall Street Journal endorsed a candidate in Brazil's election because he will open up the country to being peripheralized.
There's many reasons to endorse him over the party responsible for a massive corruption scandal that left the country in it's current situation. How anyone can even begin to defend Lula, and the PT party in general is absolutely fucking crazy.

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That false dilemma was either Brazil engages in (more) deforestation or it faces food insecurity. Brazil has plenty of existing arable land; it's generally classified as a breadbasket. That was the point in bringing up coffee.

The country exports food (it might be the largest after the U.S. and E.U., even) while having hunger issues, btw.

This is recent thing. Maybe in the last 10-15 years once they figured out how to make the soil more fertile . But it's actually not that big a piece of land that is used for farming. Not enough to sustain a country of this size. You've never been to a supermarket here have you?

The biggest exports are currently soy and chicken.

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A top ten national economy facing a lack of investment and industry is sort of a prima facie absurd claim too, but that's going on a tangent from a tangent.
Facing a lack of investment? Yes, people are scared to do business here. Do you know anything at all about this situation or are you just spitting socialist bullshit out of your mouth?

Brazil is one of the toughest places to do business, add in the lack of faith now because of corruptions in all levels of government and you have less investment coming into the country than ever before. It's a big economy because there are a lot of people here. That's not going to mean anything to people when there's unemployment levels of 13-20 million.


Brehvolution

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Since this is a good segue, frankly I don't understand how any of you still have any kind of optimism left regarding climate and have not adopted a pessimistic fatalism

Because Jesus will come save us before shit gets too bad.  :doge
©ZH

Nintex

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because while things will certainly be bad the degree of badness is uncertain and depends on the actions we take now
India and China are opening more and more coal plants.

The only action we can take now is kill half the planet or hope that someone figures something out before doomsday as always.
We're way past the point of no return in terms of industrialization and environmental pollution.
🤴

Mandark

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India and China are opening more and more coal plants.

The US emits roughly ten times as much CO2 per capita as India does. The EU about five times as much. The Netherlands six times as much.

Fucking up basic, obvious truths so you can blame swarthy foreigners? At least the post is on brand.

Propagandhim

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India and China are opening more and more coal plants.

The US emits roughly ten times as much CO2 per capita as India does. The EU about five times as much. The Netherlands six times as much.

Fucking up basic, obvious truths so you can blame swarthy foreigners? At least the post is on brand.

don't listen to anyone who misquotes me and makes me look like i made a mistake (Mandark)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 06:48:22 PM by Propagandhim »

Mandark

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Asia comprises 75% of all CO2 emissions and Europe and the US combined comprises 15%.  Who cares about the per capita emissions of Luxembourg if it's not going to ameliorate the large-scale problem.

to start with this is literally not true

Propagandhim

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Asia comprises 75% of all CO2 emissions and Europe and the US combined comprises 15%.  Who cares about the per capita emissions of Luxembourg if it's not going to ameliorate the large-scale problem.

to start with this is literally not true

  :badass  oops.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 06:46:44 PM by Propagandhim »

Mandark

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Thanks for posting a graph to prove my point?

Propagandhim

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Thanks for posting a graph to prove my point?

So, it is.

Nintex

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India and China are opening more and more coal plants.

The US emits roughly ten times as much CO2 per capita as India does. The EU about five times as much. The Netherlands six times as much.

Fucking up basic, obvious truths so you can blame swarthy foreigners? At least the post is on brand.
The point is that if we put up a windmill someone else puts down a coal plant.

In fact, the 'Energiewende' that the Germans enacted completely failed. They shuttered their nuclear and coal plants too soon and are now more dependent on Russian energy and gas.
Which is produced pretty much without any regard for environmental regulations.

The Netherlands is unique when it comes to geography because our country is so damn small. The population density is about 500/600 people per km2
For India that number is ~200 per km2 for China ~150. The United States 36 km2.

That's also why our CO2 emissions are so damn high. Even though the most commonly used method of transportation is a bicycle.

Also a huge chunk of our nation is just water or lands that are designated to be flooded by water in case of rising tides.

Not to mention that historically developing nations have higher levels of pollution. Until a certain point when the citizens are more concerned with their well being than economic growth. 
China and India or large parts of it still care more about economic growth than the environment. And the environmentalists overall are losing the battle.
Other nations such as Russia and now even the United States have prioritized economic growth above all else.

As a planet we depend too much on our energy, gas and way of living to really make a turn in terms of global warming and the environment.
It's kinda like the prisoners dilemma. After all, the first one who goes 'green' likely loses the economic battle. Germany's energy market is a prime example.
🤴

Mandark

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the problem is that you're a dumb person generally and also clearly know nothing about this subject

Nintex

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I can give you another example.
We've shut down nearly all our nuclear power. There's one generator left which is mainly used for medical research purposes.

The Belgians have an old reactor that has overheated and leaked a couple of times right on our border and they're not shutting it down.

There's no benefit to kneecapping your own economy by enacting strict environmental regulations and producing clean energy.
Countries that produce clean energy focus on it because there's an economic incentive or because they don't want to rely on natural resources or energy resources from abroad.
🤴

shosta

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I hope I live to see time travel so I can go back in time and use your posts to convince your mom to abort you.
每天生气

Assimilate

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I hope I live to see time travel so I can go back in time and use your posts to convince your mom to abort you.
This was funny, I was going to give you a like for this, but then I realized you're aids.

remy

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I can give you another example.
We've shut down nearly all our nuclear power. There's one generator left which is mainly used for medical research purposes.

The Belgians have an old reactor that has overheated and leaked a couple of times right on our border and they're not shutting it down.

There's no benefit to kneecapping your own economy by enacting strict environmental regulations and producing clean energy.
Countries that produce clean energy focus on it because there's an economic incentive or because they don't want to rely on natural resources or energy resources from abroad.
Literally whenever I read these well even if I do something good someone else is doing something BAD so i better not do anything GOOD type posts my brain leaks out of my ears

not the mention nuclear fearmongering, is it the 50s? I'd take more nuclear, the 8000x more efficient method with no greenhouse gas over more fucking coal any day of the week.

Cerveza mas fina

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Is Nintex dutch?

Because thats the fucking Dutch mentality.

I wont do the right thing as long as someone else is doing something bad. Every time I talk to Dutch people it boils down to this.

Or Dutch people opposing wind energy because it will ruin the view LOL.

Fucking cop outs.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 12:51:43 AM by Premium Lager »

Raist

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On the plus side whenever sea levels rise they'll be the first to go :yeshrug

Cerveza mas fina

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I litteraly have friends who live on the coast, in one of the most endangered streches, well below sea level, who opposed building a wind farm of the coast because it will ruin the view from the beach.


benjipwns

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 :usacry remembering a better time with our middle east allies :usacry

https://www.si.com/vault/1967/05/08/609343/his-majesty-the-leadfoot

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HIS MAJESTY, THE LEADFOOT

A THOROUGHLY MODERN SPORTSMAN-MONARCH, KING HUSSEIN OF JORDAN HOPES TO LEAD BACKWARD ELEMENTS OF HIS COUNTRY INTO THE PRESENT BY THE FORCE OF HIS EXAMPLE. THE KING'S ATHLETIC RANGE IS UNUSUALLY WIDE, AND HIS SKILLS ARE IMPRESSIVE

original layout: https://www.si.com/vault/issue/42942/46

seagrams hotsauce

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I litteraly have friends who live on the coast, in one of the most endangered streches, well below sea level, who opposed building a wind farm of the coast because it will ruin the view from the beach.
you wouldn't happen to be talking about CapeWind by any chance

Rufus

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Or Dutch people opposing wind energy because it will ruin the view LOL.
Same in Germany. We've got problems efficiently distributing electricity from renewables, but some people are against new grid infrastructure (and before that, windmills) for exactly this reason.

Yay, renewables, but not in MY backyard. :picard

Cerveza mas fina

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And people say the left has become snobby, its because the general public is dumb af

I litteraly have friends who live on the coast, in one of the most endangered streches, well below sea level, who opposed building a wind farm of the coast because it will ruin the view from the beach.
you wouldn't happen to be talking about CapeWind by any chance

Nope, but reading up on it its a bit the same scenario but in our case it wasnt millionaires battling against it just regular folks

Crash Dummy

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this reminds of a lucifer episode where a lady murders some people for going on a public beach because it spoiled the view from her kitchen or something

Nintex

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The IDF is moving their forces towards Gaza. One Reuters reporter spotted 60 vehicles at a staging site.
🤴

Mandark

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The Netherlands is unique when it comes to geography because our country is so damn small. The population density is about 500/600 people per km2
For India that number is ~200 per km2 for China ~150. The United States 36 km2.

That's also why our CO2 emissions are so damn high.

This is completely backwards. Higher population density makes lower GHG emissions per person easier (see average of NYC residents vs. rural Americans).

curly

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This Jamal Khashoggi thing has gone on a lot longer than I expeted

Mandark

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You and MBS both, buddy.

curly

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It's really surreal. The Sauds keep floating new stories for what happened to see which one Washington will accept and when one gets shot down they come back with something slightly more credible and with a slightly greater admission of guilt, going from outright denial to rogue killers to accident during interrogation to now pinning it on a general acting on his own. It's such obvious pageantry and everybody knows what really happened but I guess as long as the important players maintain kayfabe then it works out?

shosta

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There's no consequence if the Saudis simply never admit to doing it so that's how it'll die out: one week from now after a few days of no developments.
每天生气

curly

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right now it seems like they're going to say that a Saudi official ordered it but MBS was unaware, which is at least a partial admission in guilt.

Also the potential fall guy isn't somebody anonymous, he was promoted by MBS and is the public face of the war on Yemen


Nintex

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Not sure about the Saudi thing. Some commentators rightly pointed out that the alternative to MBS might be even worse.
And that dropping him like we once dropped the Shah of Iran didn't exactly bring about a better situation for the parties involved.

Even though this is causing him some trouble, MBS also knows that it'll be forgotten and forgiven in time.
Just like with Putin who casually murdered and silenced all of his critics but happens to be a big energy supplier

The US can't just break ties with KSA without a big geo political shift. They know this and take advantage of it, much like Israel does.

🤴

Mandark

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if only there were some third option besides overthrowing their government and selling them unlimited weapons with a carte blanche to kill whoever they want

if only

Nintex

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if only there were some third option besides overthrowing their government and selling them unlimited weapons with a carte blanche to kill whoever they want

if only
We bascially tried all the options over the years.

1. Iraq -> Invade and remove -> Insurgency + big failure
2. Libya -> Assist and guide -> Sodomized -> Clusterfuck + biggest migration crisis in modern history
3. Egypt -> You people deserve freedom! -> people pick zealots -> Fuck the people, get back the military -> Military murders zealots
4. Iran -> Deal and appease -> Continues to develop nukes and fund terrorists -> End deal -> Continues to develop nukes and fund terrorists
5. Saudi -> Send Kushner with intel to prevent palace coup -> Reform agenda -> Starts murdering journalists
6. Syria -> Send guns -> Send more guns -> Send even more guns -> Fuck it, let the Russians handle it -> Goddamn you Russians

The only thing that seems to work somewhat is the meetings, hand shaking and summits with those despots as it distracts them from doing evil shit.
🤴

Mandark

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4. Iran -> Deal and appease -> Continues to develop nukes

This is just a lie.

Why are you lying?

Nintex

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4. Iran -> Deal and appease -> Continues to develop nukes

This is just a lie.

Why are you lying?
That is no lie. They're still developing those weapons. They would be stupid not to.
Same with North Korea.

In fact the deal only stalled development for a time. This has been acknowledged by Obama administration officials who basically said the deal was just an opening to get Iran back into international diplomacy so further progress could be made.
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Mandark

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No, really.

Why are you lying?

Mandark

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Same with North Korea.

But you told me that they were getting rid of their nukes! What's going on?

Nintex

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No, really.

Why are you lying?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/obama-official-says-he-pushed-a-narrative-to-media-to-sell-the-iran-nuclear-deal/2016/05/06/5b90d984-13a1-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html

https://nypost.com/2016/05/05/playing-the-press-and-the-public-for-chumps-to-sell-the-iran-deal/

https://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/rhodes-iran-deal-should-be-used-as-platform-to-address-other-issues-1223492163991?v=raila&

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8017/ben-rhodes-iran-deal

Ben Rhodes used the media as an echo chamber to sell the deal. Which was something that was cooked up on Iran's terms and basically paused some things for a time but didn't end the program.
After all, a big source of Iran nuclear technology is North Korea.

Same with North Korea.

But you told me that they were getting rid of their nukes! What's going on?
I never said that. I said that the US and SK would come to some sort of deal. However, now that the North Koreans have nukes they're not giving them up. They're not parading them around anymore and they're not shooting missiles over Japan so that's at least an improvement.
🤴


agrajag

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Nintex is trying to Gish Gallop on a message board

 :derp :rofl

curly

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Cerveza mas fina

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if only there were some third option besides overthrowing their government and selling them unlimited weapons with a carte blanche to kill whoever they want

if only

Idk

Cerveza mas fina

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There's no consequence if the Saudis simply never admit to doing it so that's how it'll die out: one week from now after a few days of no developments.

There are no consequences even if they outright admit to it. The US has overlooked everything KSA has done since they established relations prior to WWII. They overlooked the oil embargo of the 70s. The overlooked Saudi involvement in 9/11. While the American government and press led a smear campaign against France for not supporting the Iraq War, Saudi Arabia didn't join in and there wasn't a peep about it. KSA-US relations were as bad as they'd been in 40 years during the Obama administration...and the biggest arms deal in the history of either country was signed during that period. The US will NEVER do anything of consequence to KSA as long as there's oil and money involved. Even when KSA withheld oil, America immediately signed a $2B (in mid 70s money) military sale deal with them.

While all the news agencies were reporting about KSA about to release a report that took some sort of culpability, the sitting president of the United States was out there literally spouting KSA propaganda conspiracy theories to the American media. The same sitting president whose first international trip as president was to...Saudi Arabia to sign a $110B arms deal. And during all of this, the secretary of state who had been sent to KSA ostensibly to "investigate" this disappearance and possible death of a journalist was taking super smiley photo ops and happened to leave with $100M for American coffers that could have been paid at any time, but the timing is just a coincidence.  ::)

We could just take the oil if we wanted

Nintex

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Nintex is trying to Gish Gallop on a message board

 :derp :rofl
:trumps

https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1052931374347378688
:thinking

Turkish news source too :thinking
Sorry comrade I hope I didn't obstruct your investigation
 :putin
🤴

VomKriege

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Remember that the KSA, as far as we can tell, literally sequestered into custody the prime minister of a foreign country and forced him to resign on TV. Everything was pretty much nullified a couple of months later nevertheless there was precious few consequences for it.
ὕβρις

kingv

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Only Elon Musk can save us brehs.

Nintex

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Is Nintex dutch?

Because thats the fucking Dutch mentality.

I wont do the right thing as long as someone else is doing something bad. Every time I talk to Dutch people it boils down to this.

Or Dutch people opposing wind energy because it will ruin the view LOL.

Fucking cop outs.
I literally live in a coastal town that blocked the plans for wind energy because it would ruin the view from our beach.  :smug
🤴

kingv

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Dutch people are a bunch of white cishet caucasoids.

What else did you expect?

Nintex

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Dutch people are a bunch of white cishet caucasoids.

What else did you expect?
We are the most tolerant country on the planet by far and excellent at trading and engineering.
Especially when it comes to preventing floods and other disasters.

- The first to have a gay wedding
- The first to have somewhat legal weed
- The first to crash the economy with an unsustainable bubble
- The first to go bankrupt while slave trading

Our 'golden age' is literally colonizing half the globe, sailing into British harbors to blow up their ships and looting the Spanish Armada  :rejoice
🤴

Mandark

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Nintex, you never explained why you were repeatedly lying about Iran's nuclear weapons program.

Nintex

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Nintex, you never explained why you were repeatedly lying about Iran's nuclear weapons program.
I don't believe the notion that they stopped developing those weapons ever because it would be stupid if they did.
Qaddafi gave up his fake nukes and he got sodomized and thrown in a ditch.
Ukraine gave up their nukes and weapon stockpiles with the help of one unknown senator named Barack Hussein Obama.

Only to watch Putin snag up 25% of their country.


Iran would be the dumbest motherfuckers alive if they actually stopped their nuclear program.
🤴

Mandark

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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Mandark

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I wonder, are there any recent examples where assuming a country had an active nuclear weapons program turned out to be a huge fucking mistake?

:thinking

Steve Contra

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Nintex, you never explained why you were repeatedly lying about Iran's nuclear weapons program.
I don't believe the notion that they stopped developing those weapons ever because it would be stupid if they did.
Qaddafi gave up his fake nukes and he got sodomized and thrown in a ditch.
Ukraine gave up their nukes and weapon stockpiles with the help of one unknown senator named Barack Hussein Obama.

Only to watch Putin snag up 25% of their country.


Iran would be the dumbest motherfuckers alive if they actually stopped their nuclear program.
This is fucking amazing.
vin

Mandark

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Nintex, if you're typing up a big care post to salvage the situation instead of just saying "haha okay you got me I'm full of shit," I'd advise against it.

Nintex

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I wonder, are there any recent examples where assuming a country had an active nuclear weapons program turned out to be a huge fucking mistake?

:thinking
Iraq is another reason why you're doomed if you do and doomed if you don't.
What incentive is there for Iran to give up nukes?
A) Give up nukes and watch how the US/Saudi/Israeli alliance moves closer to their borders
B) Keep nukes to prevent an attack and increase their power in the region

People underestimate the fallout of the Balkan wars of the 90's. It showed that the US would ignore international law if they felt it was their duty or they were on the right side of history.
The Russians never got passed that and neither did their allies such as the Syrians and the Iranians.

If Iran didn't have nukes OP Persian Freedom would've launched ages ago. Right around the time they were softening up Syria.
But not even Bibi dares to bomb alleged nuclear sites in Iran in case they actually have nuclear weapons and decide to fire back.

The difference with North Korea is simple. The foreign policy experts do not fear that North Korea would use nukes on their own neighbors. That does not match their policy of reunification.
They fear that the North Koreans would sell their nuclear weapons to other rogue regimes such as Iran and even African states. After all, they've got a substantial illegal trade in chemical weapons already.

All we've seen in recent years is that deals and cease fires like the Protection deal for Ukraine and the UN charter on Iraq are completely useless when one of the big powers (Russia,China, US) wants something.

So let me ask you again. Why would Iran give up their nukes? What reason could they possibly have?
🤴

Mandark

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Nintex, if you're typing up a big care post to salvage the situation instead of just saying "haha okay you got me I'm full of shit," I'd advise against it.

wow this mandark guy is psychic

Nintex

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Nintex, if you're typing up a big care post to salvage the situation instead of just saying "haha okay you got me I'm full of shit," I'd advise against it.

wow this mandark guy is psychic
Give me one good reason for Iran to give up their nukes.

There isn't.
🤴