International Politics Thread - Disease and Disaster

[Mandark]

The Netherlands is unique when it comes to geography because our country is so damn small. The population density is about 500/600 people per km2
For India that number is ~200 per km2 for China ~150. The United States 36 km2.

That's also why our CO2 emissions are so damn high.

This is completely backwards. Higher population density makes lower GHG emissions per person easier (see average of NYC residents vs. rural Americans).

[curly]

This Jamal Khashoggi thing has gone on a lot longer than I expeted

[Mandark]

You and MBS both, buddy.

[curly]

It's really surreal. The Sauds keep floating new stories for what happened to see which one Washington will accept and when one gets shot down they come back with something slightly more credible and with a slightly greater admission of guilt, going from outright denial to rogue killers to accident during interrogation to now pinning it on a general acting on his own. It's such obvious pageantry and everybody knows what really happened but I guess as long as the important players maintain kayfabe then it works out?

[curly]

right now it seems like they're going to say that a Saudi official ordered it but MBS was unaware, which is at least a partial admission in guilt.

Also the potential fall guy isn't somebody anonymous, he was promoted by MBS and is the public face of the war on Yemen

[Nintex]

Not sure about the Saudi thing. Some commentators rightly pointed out that the alternative to MBS might be even worse.
And that dropping him like we once dropped the Shah of Iran didn't exactly bring about a better situation for the parties involved.

Even though this is causing him some trouble, MBS also knows that it'll be forgotten and forgiven in time.
Just like with Putin who casually murdered and silenced all of his critics but happens to be a big energy supplier

The US can't just break ties with KSA without a big geo political shift. They know this and take advantage of it, much like Israel does.

[Mandark]

if only there were some third option besides overthrowing their government and selling them unlimited weapons with a carte blanche to kill whoever they want

if only

[Nintex]

if only there were some third option besides overthrowing their government and selling them unlimited weapons with a carte blanche to kill whoever they want

if only

We bascially tried all the options over the years.

1. Iraq -> Invade and remove -> Insurgency + big failure
2. Libya -> Assist and guide -> Sodomized -> Clusterfuck + biggest migration crisis in modern history
3. Egypt -> You people deserve freedom! -> people pick zealots -> Fuck the people, get back the military -> Military murders zealots
4. Iran -> Deal and appease -> Continues to develop nukes and fund terrorists -> End deal -> Continues to develop nukes and fund terrorists
5. Saudi -> Send Kushner with intel to prevent palace coup -> Reform agenda -> Starts murdering journalists
6. Syria -> Send guns -> Send more guns -> Send even more guns -> Fuck it, let the Russians handle it -> Goddamn you Russians

The only thing that seems to work somewhat is the meetings, hand shaking and summits with those despots as it distracts them from doing evil shit.

[Mandark]

4. Iran -> Deal and appease -> Continues to develop nukes

This is just a lie.

Why are you lying?

[Nintex]

4. Iran -> Deal and appease -> Continues to develop nukes

This is just a lie.

Why are you lying?

That is no lie. They're still developing those weapons. They would be stupid not to.
Same with North Korea.

In fact the deal only stalled development for a time. This has been acknowledged by Obama administration officials who basically said the deal was just an opening to get Iran back into international diplomacy so further progress could be made.

[Mandark]

No, really.

Why are you lying?

[Mandark]

Same with North Korea.

But you told me that they were getting rid of their nukes! What's going on?

[Nintex]

No, really.

Why are you lying?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/obama-official-says-he-pushed-a-narrative-to-media-to-sell-the-iran-nuclear-deal/2016/05/06/5b90d984-13a1-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html

https://nypost.com/2016/05/05/playing-the-press-and-the-public-for-chumps-to-sell-the-iran-deal/

https://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/rhodes-iran-deal-should-be-used-as-platform-to-address-other-issues-1223492163991?v=raila&

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8017/ben-rhodes-iran-deal

Ben Rhodes used the media as an echo chamber to sell the deal. Which was something that was cooked up on Iran's terms and basically paused some things for a time but didn't end the program.
After all, a big source of Iran nuclear technology is North Korea.

Same with North Korea.

But you told me that they were getting rid of their nukes! What's going on?

I never said that. I said that the US and SK would come to some sort of deal. However, now that the North Koreans have nukes they're not giving them up. They're not parading them around anymore and they're not shooting missiles over Japan so that's at least an improvement.

[Mandark]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/obama-official-says-he-pushed-a-narrative-to-media-to-sell-the-iran-nuclear-deal/2016/05/06/5b90d984-13a1-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html

https://nypost.com/2016/05/05/playing-the-press-and-the-public-for-chumps-to-sell-the-iran-deal/

https://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/rhodes-iran-deal-should-be-used-as-platform-to-address-other-issues-1223492163991?v=raila&

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8017/ben-rhodes-iran-deal

None of those links say Iran is currently developing nuclear weapons. Did you not read them, or did you just expect nobody else to read them and notice you were lying again?


edit:

But you told me that they were getting rid of their nukes! What's going on?

I never said that.

[agrajag]

Nintex is trying to Gish Gallop on a message board

 

[curly]

https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1052931374347378688


Turkish news source too

[Cerveza mas fina]

if only there were some third option besides overthrowing their government and selling them unlimited weapons with a carte blanche to kill whoever they want

if only

Idk

[Cerveza mas fina]

There's no consequence if the Saudis simply never admit to doing it so that's how it'll die out: one week from now after a few days of no developments.

There are no consequences even if they outright admit to it. The US has overlooked everything KSA has done since they established relations prior to WWII. They overlooked the oil embargo of the 70s. The overlooked Saudi involvement in 9/11. While the American government and press led a smear campaign against France for not supporting the Iraq War, Saudi Arabia didn't join in and there wasn't a peep about it. KSA-US relations were as bad as they'd been in 40 years during the Obama administration...and the biggest arms deal in the history of either country was signed during that period. The US will NEVER do anything of consequence to KSA as long as there's oil and money involved. Even when KSA withheld oil, America immediately signed a $2B (in mid 70s money) military sale deal with them.

While all the news agencies were reporting about KSA about to release a report that took some sort of culpability, the sitting president of the United States was out there literally spouting KSA propaganda conspiracy theories to the American media. The same sitting president whose first international trip as president was to...Saudi Arabia to sign a $110B arms deal. And during all of this, the secretary of state who had been sent to KSA ostensibly to "investigate" this disappearance and possible death of a journalist was taking super smiley photo ops and happened to leave with $100M for American coffers that could have been paid at any time, but the timing is just a coincidence. 

We could just take the oil if we wanted

[Nintex]

Nintex is trying to Gish Gallop on a message board

 

https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1052931374347378688


Turkish news source too

Sorry comrade I hope I didn't obstruct your investigation
 

[VomKriege]

Remember that the KSA, as far as we can tell, literally sequestered into custody the prime minister of a foreign country and forced him to resign on TV. Everything was pretty much nullified a couple of months later nevertheless there was precious few consequences for it.

[kingv]

Only Elon Musk can save us brehs.

[Nintex]

Is Nintex dutch?

Because thats the fucking Dutch mentality.

I wont do the right thing as long as someone else is doing something bad. Every time I talk to Dutch people it boils down to this.

Or Dutch people opposing wind energy because it will ruin the view LOL.

Fucking cop outs.

I literally live in a coastal town that blocked the plans for wind energy because it would ruin the view from our beach. 

[kingv]

Dutch people are a bunch of white cishet caucasoids.

What else did you expect?

[Nintex]

Dutch people are a bunch of white cishet caucasoids.

What else did you expect?

We are the most tolerant country on the planet by far and excellent at trading and engineering.
Especially when it comes to preventing floods and other disasters.

- The first to have a gay wedding
- The first to have somewhat legal weed
- The first to crash the economy with an unsustainable bubble
- The first to go bankrupt while slave trading

Our 'golden age' is literally colonizing half the globe, sailing into British harbors to blow up their ships and looting the Spanish Armada 

[Mandark]

Nintex, you never explained why you were repeatedly lying about Iran's nuclear weapons program.

[Nintex]

Nintex, you never explained why you were repeatedly lying about Iran's nuclear weapons program.

I don't believe the notion that they stopped developing those weapons ever because it would be stupid if they did.
Qaddafi gave up his fake nukes and he got sodomized and thrown in a ditch.
Ukraine gave up their nukes and weapon stockpiles with the help of one unknown senator named Barack Hussein Obama.

Only to watch Putin snag up 25% of their country.


Iran would be the dumbest motherfuckers alive if they actually stopped their nuclear program.

[Mandark]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Mandark]

I wonder, are there any recent examples where assuming a country had an active nuclear weapons program turned out to be a huge fucking mistake?

[Steve Contra]

Nintex, you never explained why you were repeatedly lying about Iran's nuclear weapons program.

I don't believe the notion that they stopped developing those weapons ever because it would be stupid if they did.
Qaddafi gave up his fake nukes and he got sodomized and thrown in a ditch.
Ukraine gave up their nukes and weapon stockpiles with the help of one unknown senator named Barack Hussein Obama.

Only to watch Putin snag up 25% of their country.


Iran would be the dumbest motherfuckers alive if they actually stopped their nuclear program.

This is fucking amazing.

[Mandark]

Nintex, if you're typing up a big care post to salvage the situation instead of just saying "haha okay you got me I'm full of shit," I'd advise against it.

[Nintex]

I wonder, are there any recent examples where assuming a country had an active nuclear weapons program turned out to be a huge fucking mistake?

Iraq is another reason why you're doomed if you do and doomed if you don't.
What incentive is there for Iran to give up nukes?
A) Give up nukes and watch how the US/Saudi/Israeli alliance moves closer to their borders
B) Keep nukes to prevent an attack and increase their power in the region

People underestimate the fallout of the Balkan wars of the 90's. It showed that the US would ignore international law if they felt it was their duty or they were on the right side of history.
The Russians never got passed that and neither did their allies such as the Syrians and the Iranians.

If Iran didn't have nukes OP Persian Freedom would've launched ages ago. Right around the time they were softening up Syria.
But not even Bibi dares to bomb alleged nuclear sites in Iran in case they actually have nuclear weapons and decide to fire back.

The difference with North Korea is simple. The foreign policy experts do not fear that North Korea would use nukes on their own neighbors. That does not match their policy of reunification.
They fear that the North Koreans would sell their nuclear weapons to other rogue regimes such as Iran and even African states. After all, they've got a substantial illegal trade in chemical weapons already.

All we've seen in recent years is that deals and cease fires like the Protection deal for Ukraine and the UN charter on Iraq are completely useless when one of the big powers (Russia,China, US) wants something.

So let me ask you again. Why would Iran give up their nukes? What reason could they possibly have?

[Mandark]

Nintex, if you're typing up a big care post to salvage the situation instead of just saying "haha okay you got me I'm full of shit," I'd advise against it.

wow this mandark guy is psychic

[Nintex]

Nintex, if you're typing up a big care post to salvage the situation instead of just saying "haha okay you got me I'm full of shit," I'd advise against it.

wow this mandark guy is psychic

Give me one good reason for Iran to give up their nukes.

There isn't.

[Mandark]

Nintex, why were you lying? What were you trying to accomplish?

[Nintex]

Nintex, why were you lying? What were you trying to accomplish?

I'm not lying. I'm saying Iran didn't give up their nukes.

That's my take on the situation. We both haven't been to Iran to verify if their Nuclear program still exists or not so we could very well both be wrong. But I'd be surprised if I was.

[Nintex]

We both haven't been to Iran to verify if their Nuclear program still exists or not so we could very well both be wrong.

Someone should check your skull to verify if your brain exists because many of us are operating on an assumption that could very well be wrong

Do not assume anything. I might be an AI for all you know.

[Nintex]

No, a fundamental component of artificial intelligence is the learning aspect

Maybe I'm learning humanity not to assume anything and think for themselves as free agents.

[Mandark]

We both haven't been to Iran to verify if their Nuclear program still exists or not so we could very well both be wrong.

Imagine if someone had been there to do just that.

[Mandark]

Note that Nintex's current argument is that while he has literally no evidence whatsoever, he can make logical inferences based on his own deep understanding of the geopolitical situation.

The same Nintex who said that a substantive peace agreement with North Korea was already done or it would "make no sense" to have a meeting.

[benjipwns]

I must admit that it's quite suspicious that Iran has never invited me personally to inspect their nuclear program. What are they hiding?

[Mandark]

After a couple decades of propaganda about Iran always being 18 months away from a bomb, you have to really be dedicated to being gullible to fall for it at this point. So congrats on that at least, Nintex.

[benjipwns]

oh no the immigrant invasion broke through the gate on the Mexico-Guatemala border, they're sending those Iranian nuclear weapons to me instead of having me come to them, i take back my offer to inspect them

[Assimilate]

After a couple decades of propaganda about Iran always being 18 months away from a bomb, you have to really be dedicated to being gullible to fall for it at this point. So congrats on that at least, Nintex.

Until they actually DO,  right?


fucking liberals 

I'm so fucking glad I've outgrown that distinguished mentally-challenged.

[Mandark]

wut

[Madrun Badrun]

wut

He so fucking glad I've outgrown that distinguished mentally-challenged.

[benjipwns]

After a couple decades of propaganda about Iran always being 18 months away from a bomb, you have to really be dedicated to being gullible to fall for it at this point. So congrats on that at least, Nintex.

Until they actually DO,  right?


fucking liberals 

I'm so fucking glad I've outgrown that distinguished mentally-challenged.

Acquiring a nuclear weapon isn't exactly difficult if you have the capital necessary, the science isn't any kind of secret, the cost is just generally prohibitive if you didn't get in on the ground floor back in the day or nobody wants to help you out.

The world generally assumes Israel has nuclear weapons and that the Saudi's could essentially buy them whenever they wanted, for example, yet neither nation has incentive to fuck around about it publicly to get attention like the "Axis of Evil" has. Pakistan made their promise to match India's possession public while under sanctions and even that hasn't gone too terrible despite it meaning that three nuclear powers are having a continuous dispute over shitty territory.

Iran's lack of one has more to do with its reading of diplomatic signals that changed; Saddam and North Korea were pursuing them for ultimately illogical reasons so neither one had any incentive to just stop of their own accord. (Saddam just plain couldn't afford it after the Gulf War, he didn't control half his country and there were all these jerks looking in his buildings for one thing, it wasn't even an ideal form of WMD for his general murdering people purposes other than he wanted to be "first" among the Arabs.) Iran doesn't get anything out of pursuing it at all costs, especially to the point of giving up benefits, they already can fuck with Israel enough through their proxies nearby for way cheaper.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Khashoggi must be the first person ever to die in a fist fight in their own embassy.

Is Nintex dutch?

Because thats the fucking Dutch mentality.

I wont do the right thing as long as someone else is doing something bad. Every time I talk to Dutch people it boils down to this.

Or Dutch people opposing wind energy because it will ruin the view LOL.

Fucking cop outs.

I literally live in a coastal town that blocked the plans for wind energy because it would ruin the view from our beach. 

Is being dumb physically painful?

Did you get diagnosed for mental distinguished mentally-challenged or doesnit fly under the radar because the rest is distinguished mentally-challenged too?

[Nintex]

Khashoggi must be the first person ever to die in a fist fight in their own embassy.

Is Nintex dutch?

Because thats the fucking Dutch mentality.

I wont do the right thing as long as someone else is doing something bad. Every time I talk to Dutch people it boils down to this.

Or Dutch people opposing wind energy because it will ruin the view LOL.

Fucking cop outs.

I literally live in a coastal town that blocked the plans for wind energy because it would ruin the view from our beach. 

Is being dumb physically painful?

Did you get diagnosed for mental distinguished mentally-challenged or doesnit fly under the radar because the rest is distinguished mentally-challenged too?

Part of the general public is blocking those ideas because they'll never supply enough power.
We could build a hydro plant, use even more solar panels and whatnot.

However the government and what we call 'the climate lobby' come up with plans that basically protect their own interests at the expense of citizens.
The only reason the big energy companies want those windmill parks is because...
1) They get EU subsidies
2) They get big tax breaks from the government for doing so

However, they never generate enough power, they pick the shittiest contractors they can find to build them and they're poorly maintained.
The energy companies instead buy more power cheaply from places like Russia and line their own pockets with the subsidies and tax incentives.

The best climate policy we had was 0 added taxes for electric and hybrid cars(which could end up anywhere between 5-7k in savings). But then Shell protested because gas stations would close down and people would lose jobs.
The government reversed the policy only to watch Shell replace their so called jobs with unmanned stations anyway.

Had they told Shell to go fuck themselves about 80% of all cars on the road would've been electric and/or hybrid by now.

[Propagandhim]

After a couple decades of propaganda about Iran always being 18 months away from a bomb, you have to really be dedicated to being gullible to fall for it at this point. So congrats on that at least, Nintex.

Until they actually DO,  right?


fucking liberals 

I'm so fucking glad I've outgrown that distinguished mentally-challenged.

Acquiring a nuclear weapon isn't exactly difficult if you have the capital necessary, the science isn't any kind of secret, the cost is just generally prohibitive if you didn't get in on the ground floor back in the day or nobody wants to help you out.

The world generally assumes Israel has nuclear weapons and that the Saudi's could essentially buy them whenever they wanted, for example, yet neither nation has incentive to fuck around about it publicly to get attention like the "Axis of Evil" has. Pakistan made their promise to match India's possession public while under sanctions and even that hasn't gone too terrible despite it meaning that three nuclear powers are having a continuous dispute over shitty territory.

Iran's lack of one has more to do with its reading of diplomatic signals that changed; Saddam and North Korea were pursuing them for ultimately illogical reasons so neither one had any incentive to just stop of their own accord. (Saddam just plain couldn't afford it after the Gulf War, he didn't control half his country and there were all these jerks looking in his buildings for one thing, it wasn't even an ideal form of WMD for his general murdering people purposes other than he wanted to be "first" among the Arabs.) Iran doesn't get anything out of pursuing it at all costs, especially to the point of giving up benefits, they already can fuck with Israel enough through their proxies nearby for way cheaper.

I mean, losing your brightest physicists probably gets old, too.

[curly]

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/1053719298294902784

Saudi shills spin bullshit at levels Nintex can only dream of

[Nintex]

As such, not only are its actions valid under WTO rules, but they are also, in fact, beyond review.

Things aren’t as complicated when it comes to Canada, China, Mexico, and the EU. WTO rules require that whenever one member country believes that another has violated its trading rights, it must bring the matter to the WTO Dispute Settlement Body. Only this body can authorize retaliation. Since these countries acted wholly unilaterally in retaliating to Trump’s gambit, there is no question that they broke the rules. Unsurprisingly, the United States has already formally asked the WTO for a review.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Who cares about wto

[Nintex]

https://twitter.com/robertshrimsley/status/1053984017610170370

 

[jorma]

Does anyone really care if Iran has nukes? It's not like they're any roguer than the other states that already have them.

[Madrun Badrun]

Yes.  I wouldn't be worried about them using them, more them selling them, materials or scientific knowledge.  Also what happens to them when the regime collapses? 

[jorma]

Yes.  I wouldn't be worried about them using them, more them selling them, materials or scientific knowledge.  Also what happens to them when the regime collapses?

the same thing that happens to limey nukes when they brexit, duh.

[Nintex]

May will likely face a vote of no confidence in the coming days.
According to an aid of David Davis she's entering the 'Killing Zone'. 

[Nintex]

It has been estimated that the construction of new wind energy parks in the north sea will kill 5% of all porpoises  :'(
That number is seen as 'acceptable' by the climate lobby. Which means of the 300k animals, at least 15k will die.
The sound from the wind energy parks will make them deaf and they heavily rely on communication and especially their hearing to navigate the seas.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

oh hi our good vibes will be dead soon because of climate nazi's  :'(

[close]

[Cerveza mas fina]

Good luck building hydro plants in holland

U guys are what, 20 years behind on green energy? Meme country

[Assimilate]

Woman was riding her bike today close to the highway... car pulled over asked for her phone, she fumbled it, they shot her dead.

And motherfucking libs are worried that Bolsonaro is a chauvinist? because he called some cunt ugly that routinely protects criminals and rapists???

People are dumb.

Come Sunday I hope he is elected and starts a massive rampage to clean up this place. Fucking call in the military. Let's clean house my guy.