Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP  (Read 5429974 times)

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Atramental

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14220 on: February 14, 2018, 10:23:44 AM »
When you realize how much of a business fine art really is you kinda don’t want to bother making anything unless it’s for yourself or friends.  :doge

Rufus

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14221 on: February 14, 2018, 10:32:48 AM »
Look up Damien Hirst.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:17:53 AM by Rufus »

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14222 on: February 14, 2018, 10:44:03 AM »
Reading the article I shared there (different than the original profile I was talking about), it actually sounds like it’s potentiall even worse than some other dude painting the backgrounds. Like he has multiple studios around the world with 10 artist assistants in each. It makes you wonder if he is actually painting anything at all, or is he just the marketing head of a Chinese art studio.

I’m not going to knock the hustle, though.

VomKriege

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14223 on: February 14, 2018, 10:46:06 AM »
Painting was already a workshop affair in Renaissance. It is what it is.
ὕβρις

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14224 on: February 14, 2018, 12:19:23 PM »
Quote
considerate
1 hour ago
Suspected Russian troll/bot: letters+numbers are the Russkies' favorite algorithm for screen names.
any comment on this claim, thehunter116? :thinking

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14225 on: February 14, 2018, 12:44:27 PM »
Quote
considerate
1 hour ago
Suspected Russian troll/bot: letters+numbers are the Russkies' favorite algorithm for screen names.
any comment on this claim, thehunter116? :thinking

They also love to put American flags in their name.


Nintex

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14227 on: February 14, 2018, 02:02:53 PM »
https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/963848996925165568

Yasss more fuckery.

Get rid of Kelly already Donald and bring back the Mooch and Amarosa.

Your true friends and MAGA.
🤴

Tasty

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14228 on: February 14, 2018, 03:35:06 PM »
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2018/02/14/warren-addresses-claims-native-american-heritage/0VM3tX88fVxALoyZq9VvvJ/story.html

The New Queen :obama

Quote
But even though her speech was planned in advance, Warren was not listed on the agenda. The Republican National Committee on Tuesday morning even blasted out an e-mail with the subject: “Fauxcahontas MIA From Major Native American Summit.”

“Why is she skipping the conference?” the RNC asked. “Maybe it’s because she would face some difficult questions at the summit.”

:dead "Fauxcahontas" jesus christ.

etiolate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14229 on: February 14, 2018, 03:37:00 PM »
The Warren jokes are great

can't hate those

Tasty

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14230 on: February 14, 2018, 03:39:14 PM »
The Warren jokes are great

can't hate those

I absolutely can. The RNC is literally a clown car at this point with no dignity nor grace. It's not surprising seeing who they elected, but it's still a national embarrassment.

It'd be like a DNC email with the headline "Cheetohman ties Border Wall to DREAMers! Literal Nazis in the WH!"

I get DNC emails and they're Dalai Llama speeches compared to the RNC shit-brigade.

Tasty

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14231 on: February 14, 2018, 03:42:09 PM »
https://www.vox.com/2018/2/13/17010368/florida-special-election-margaret-good

Quote
Democrat Margaret Good defeated Republican James Buchanan by a 52-45 margin in a special election for Florida House District 72, marking the 36th state legislative seat Democrats have flipped since Donald Trump’s election.

🌊 🌊 🌊 🌊 🌊

team filler

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14232 on: February 14, 2018, 03:44:23 PM »
how many have flipped the other way since trump?
*****

Tasty

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14233 on: February 14, 2018, 03:46:01 PM »
how many have flipped the other way since trump?

See below post.

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14234 on: February 14, 2018, 03:46:39 PM »
how many have flipped the other way since trump?

Not many.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C2MVeM2K7WgqmJw5RCQbWyTo2u73CX1pI8zw_G-7BJo/edit#gid=2144047916

In party contested races

- 38 seats have flipped from R to D.

- 5 seats have flipped from D to R.


EDIT: Fixed because I can't write.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 04:01:05 PM by Nola »

Brehvolution

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14235 on: February 14, 2018, 03:50:33 PM »
Nola, I think you have those mixed up.  :thinking

If dems only win 1 more seat, I hope it's lyin' ted cruz's.
©ZH

Joe Molotov

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14236 on: February 14, 2018, 03:57:58 PM »
I hope Ted Cruz asks Donald Trump to campaign for him, and Donald's like "nah".
©@©™

Broseidon

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bent

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14238 on: February 14, 2018, 04:00:10 PM »
Nola, I think you have those mixed up.  :thinking

If dems only win 1 more seat, I hope it's lyin' ted cruz's.

Haha yep. Did that a bit too quickly.

Skullfuckers Anonymous

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14239 on: February 14, 2018, 04:03:48 PM »
Great article from NPR about why it might be a good idea to deport all illegal immigrants from America.
https://www.npr.org/2018/02/13/585398237/

Quote
"Mass deportation of current immigrants would do nothing less than cripple American Christianity for generations to come," says Samuel Rodriguez, who prayed at President Trump's inauguration. "If you deport the immigrants, you are deporting the future of Christianity."

 :preach :preach :preach

etiolate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14240 on: February 14, 2018, 04:11:08 PM »
Just for future reference

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/mattis-says-us-has-no-evidence-of-syrian-use-of-sarin-gas/2018/02/02/109f1750-0829-11e8-aa61-f3391373867e_story.html

http://www.newsweek.com/now-mattis-admits-there-was-no-evidence-assad-using-poison-gas-his-people-801542

He was talking about possible Sarin use post-Khan Sheikhoun, prompted by a new series of chlorine attacks by pro-Assad forces.

You conspiracy theorist dipshit ::)

Quote
Last April, the U.S. launched several dozen Tomahawk cruise missiles at a Syrian air base in response to what it called illegal Syrian use of chemical weapons.

Quote
Mattis offered no temporal qualifications, which means that both the 2017 event in Khan Sheikhoun and the 2013 tragedy in Ghouta are unsolved cases in the eyes of the Defense Department and Defense Intelligence Agency.

Quote
There were casualties from organophosphate poisoning in both cases; that much is certain. But America has accused Assad of direct responsibility for Sarin attacks and even blamed Russia for culpability in the Khan Sheikhoun tragedy.

Now its own military boss has said on the record that we have no evidence to support this conclusion.

https://www.rif.org/

check it out


etiolate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14242 on: February 14, 2018, 04:18:44 PM »
You left out the rest of that quote

Quote
SEC. MATTIS:  That's -- we think that they did not carry out what they said they would do back when -- in the previous administration, when they were caught using it.  Obviously they didn't, cause they used it again during our administration.

And that gives us a lot of reason to suspect them.  And now we have other reports from the battlefield from people who claim it's been used. 

We do not have evidence of it.  But we're not refuting them; we're looking for evidence of it.  Since clearly we are using -- we are dealing with the Assad regime that has used denial and deceit to hide their outlaw actions, okay?


Broseidon

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14243 on: February 14, 2018, 04:23:24 PM »
You left out the rest of that quote

Quote
SEC. MATTIS:  That's -- we think that they did not carry out what they said they would do back when -- in the previous administration, when they were caught using it.  Obviously they didn't, cause they used it again during our administration.

And that gives us a lot of reason to suspect them.  And now we have other reports from the battlefield from people who claim it's been used. 

We do not have evidence of it.  But we're not refuting them; we're looking for evidence of it.  Since clearly we are using -- we are dealing with the Assad regime that has used denial and deceit to hide their outlaw actions, okay?
As I said in my first post, he's talking about recent pro-Assad chemical attacks (which have been chlorine) post-Khan Sheikhoun and whether Sarin was used in those.

So you concede that you were wrong about previous Sarin attacks having not happened and Mattis "admitting" so?
bent

etiolate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14244 on: February 14, 2018, 04:28:18 PM »
Except the bits about claiming sarin gas for the 2017 bombing attacks and blamign them on Assad.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/26/middleeast/syria-khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-sarin/index.html

Which you can find all over the web.




By now, you should know what this means for you.








Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14245 on: February 14, 2018, 04:31:36 PM »
It's continually amusing that the guy who still buys into Seth Rich, Crowdstrike, 4chan conspiracies is lecturing about reading comprehension.

Mattis testified that they have no direct evidence of sarin gas used recently. That is a pretty important piece of context. The context is a discussion about the recent activity of the Syrian government. What they have is people on the ground, NGO's, civilians, militia, troops etc. claiming it has been used. For America to confirm that they need to find direct evidence of its recent use.

Quote
Q:  Can you talk a little bit about the chemical weapons that were -- the State Department was talking about just a little bit yesterday, that mentioned chlorine gas?  Is this something you're seeing that's been weaponized or – just give us a sense.

SEC. MATTIS:  It has.

Q:  It has.  Okay.

SEC. MATTIS:  It has.  We are more -- even more concerned about the possibility of sarin use, the likelihood of sarin use, and we're looking for the evidence.  And so that's about all the more I can say about it right now, but we are on the record, and you all have seen how we reacted to that, so they'd be ill-advised to go back to violating the chemical convention.

Quote
Q:  Can I ask a quick follow up, just a clarification on what you'd said earlier about Syria and sarin gas?

SEC. MATTIS:  Yeah.

Q:  Just make sure I heard you correctly, you're saying you think it's likely they have used it and you're looking for the evidence?  Is that what you said?

SEC. MATTIS:  That's -- we think that they did not carry out what they said they would do back when -- in the previous administration, when they were caught using it.  Obviously they didn't, cause they used it again during our administration.

And that gives us a lot of reason to suspect them.  And now we have other reports from the battlefield from people who claim it's been used. 

We do not have evidence of it.  But we're not refuting them; we're looking for evidence of it.  Since clearly we are using -- we are dealing with the Assad regime that has used denial and deceit to hide their outlaw actions, okay?

Q:  So the likelihood was not what your -- you're not characterizing it as a likelihood?  I thought I used -- you used that word; I guess I misunderstood you.

SEC. MATTIS:  Well, there's certainly groups that say they've used it.  And so they think there's a likelihood, so we're looking for the evidence.

Q:  Is there evidence of chlorine gas weapons used -- evidence of chlorine gas weapons?

SEC. MATTIS:  I think that's, yes --

Q:  No, I know, I heard you.

SEC. MATTIS:  I think it's been used repeatedly.  And that's, as you know, a somewhat separate category, which is why I broke out the sarin as another -- yeah.

Q:  So there's credible evidence out there that both sarin and chlorine --

SEC. MATTIS:  No, I have not got the evidence, not specifically.  I don't have the evidence.

What I'm saying is that other -- that groups on the ground, NGOs, fighters on the ground have said that sarin has been used.  So we are looking for evidence.  I don't have evidence, credible or uncredible.

There is nothing wrong being skeptical of whether they will have the prerequisite evidence to justify any potential escalation, but like usual you inject things into stories that there is no evidence for and select only sources that infer your own biases. Ironically your Washington Post piece makes the context of this discussion clear, but you looked past it.

Nintex

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14246 on: February 14, 2018, 04:33:01 PM »
🤴

Broseidon

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14247 on: February 14, 2018, 04:33:51 PM »
Except the bits about claiming sarin gas for the 2017 bombing attacks and blamign them on Assad.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/26/middleeast/syria-khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-sarin/index.html

Which you can find all over the web.

 :confused

what are you trying to say here?
bent

etiolate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14248 on: February 14, 2018, 04:37:21 PM »
If you're too dumb to figure out where you fucked up then I can't help you. 

All I'd do is point out what you said and how it was wrong.

I already did this.

I'm not kidding about that reading is fundamental link.

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14249 on: February 14, 2018, 04:38:17 PM »
It's etiolate, he is going to take misleading Newsweek articles that misrepresent context to advance a conspiracy that Syria never dropped chemical weapons even though we have the fucking receipts. Then go on to lecture people about confirmation bias in twenty other threads.

Its pretty simple, Syria used chemical weapons for years, we have seen the direct evidence of that between two administrations, what we do not have, and Mattis's testimony is speaking about, is recent evidence of its use. We have allegations the government find credible enough to investigate, but nothing to corroborate yet.

For someone that takes faith in the Seth Rich conspiracy, you would think etiolate would understand that?

Tasty

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14250 on: February 14, 2018, 04:45:38 PM »
If you're too dumb to figure out where you fucked up then I can't help you.

When you're so woke you won't even discuss what you're woke about

spoiler (click to show/hide)
[close]

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14251 on: February 14, 2018, 04:51:05 PM »


NSFW
spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

I'm sure those dying Syrians just thought it would be a real hoot to go out faking the symptoms of Sarin gas poisoning.

Congrats on uncovering the grand deep state conspiracy. I'm sure Seth Rich is gonna be coming up next for you to add to the win column.

Fucking moron.

Valhelm

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14252 on: February 14, 2018, 04:52:16 PM »
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/14/joe-manchin-trump-immigration-plan-408981

Quit it with the purity tests, Bernie Bros. All that matters is electing somebody who has a D next to their name.

Joe Molotov

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14253 on: February 14, 2018, 04:55:31 PM »
Except the bits about claiming sarin gas for the 2017 bombing attacks and blamign them on Assad.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/26/middleeast/syria-khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-sarin/index.html

Which you can find all over the web.

 :confused

what are you trying to say here?

Hillary emailed sarin gas to Syria.
©@©™

etiolate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14254 on: February 14, 2018, 04:56:03 PM »
The claim is that Assad used Sarin on his country

This claim is made to the 2013 attack and the 2017 attack. No evidence of Assad doing it in either, but Assad being responsible is the argument for getting involved.

Quote
The panel is confident that the Syrian Arab Republic is responsible for the release of sarin at Khan Sheikhun on 4 April 2017," the report says, one diplomat told CNN.

The April attack prompted US President Donald Trump to order the US military to launch 59 Tomahawk cruise missiles at a Syrian airbase.

"‎Time and again, we see independent confirmation of chemical weapons use by the Assad regime. And in spite of these independent reports, we still see some countries trying to protect the regime. That must end now," Nikki Haley, US ambassador to the United Nations, said in a statement.

Mattis on the past and present:

Quote
Q:  Can I ask a quick follow up, just a clarification on what you'd said earlier about Syria and sarin gas?

SEC. MATTIS:  Yeah.

Q:  Just make sure I heard you correctly, you're saying you think it's likely they have used it and you're looking for the evidence?  Is that what you said?

SEC. MATTIS:  That's -- we think that they did not carry out what they said they would do back when -- in the previous administration, when they were caught using it.  Obviously they didn't, cause they used it again during our administration.

And that gives us a lot of reason to suspect them.  And now we have other reports from the battlefield from people who claim it's been used. 

We do not have evidence of it.  But we're not refuting them; we're looking for evidence of it.  Since clearly we are using -- we are dealing with the Assad regime that has used denial and deceit to hide their outlaw actions, okay?

Q:  So the likelihood was not what your -- you're not characterizing it as a likelihood?  I thought I used -- you used that word; I guess I misunderstood you.

SEC. MATTIS:  Well, there's certainly groups that say they've used it.  And so they think there's a likelihood, so we're looking for the evidence.
[/b]


Just because you are fighting information in your head, I'll try to organize this for you. There has been chemical attacks. We do not know who is responsible for the attacks. In very weasely ways, we say its Assad but have no evidence of that. We weasel our way into a military action based on this Assad assumption without having evidence. This is why Mattis is so awkward in that answer.

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14255 on: February 14, 2018, 05:08:29 PM »
Your capacity for cognitive dissonance and ability to dig in and not admit mistakes is truly astounding etiolate.

Mattis, in testimony regarding ongoing events in the middle east, is speaking about past uses of Sarin gas. Which he infers as confirmed. He goes on to speak about ongoing allegations of sarin gas use, that the government has not independently confirmed, but allegations from multiple groups are present. This is really not that hard to grasp.

I wonder how the sarin gas ended up in those kids last April? Whats next etiolate, you gonna quote the trustworthy Russian defense ministry that claimed the bombs dropped just magically hit a rebel warehouse with sarin gas reserves, fingerprinted as being from the government, and that was the cause?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 05:13:20 PM by Nola »

Broseidon

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14256 on: February 14, 2018, 05:28:05 PM »
Strange how these multiple different rebel groups, in very different parts of the country, several years apart, are somehow able to get their hands on binary Sarin, with chemical signatures peculiar to those of government stockpiles (known due to the CW handover deal) and then only ever use it on themselves via munitions used only by pro-Assad forces, and the top secret jets and helicopters that they use exclusively for false flag Sarin ops on themselves and their own communities, and no other purpose.
bent

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14257 on: February 14, 2018, 05:39:00 PM »
Strange how these multiple different rebel groups, in very different parts of the country, several years apart, are somehow able to get their hands on binary Sarin, with chemical signatures peculiar to those of government stockpiles (known due to the CW handover deal) and then only ever use it on themselves via munitions used only by pro-Assad forces, and the top secret jets and helicopters that they use exclusively for false flag Sarin ops on themselves and their own communities, and no other purpose.


Fuuuuuuuck.... this goes even deeper than I suspected!

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14258 on: February 14, 2018, 05:43:46 PM »
I'm about to post something and you're all going to hate me even more than you usually do.
每天生气

Trent Dole

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14259 on: February 14, 2018, 06:14:46 PM »
Stop engaging shithead and making the thread unreadable ya mooks. :doge
Hi

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14260 on: February 14, 2018, 06:14:48 PM »
Iraq population:

Syrian population (I couldn't get the y axis to start at 0 for that time frame, but notice the 14% drop from its peak):


Iraq GDP Growth:

Syria GDP "Growth":


Iraq refugees high in 2007 (7 years before ISIS):
2 million (7044 per 100k), 1.7 million displaced
Syria refugees now:
6 million (one third of Syria's current population) and 5 million internally displaced.

Who had the better foreign policy: Obama, or George W. Bush?

Hillary Clinton couldn't get what she wanted in Syria, so she opted for a weapons program to rebel groups. Did that make things better, or worse?
每天生气

Nintex

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14261 on: February 14, 2018, 06:26:28 PM »
When yo squad is ready to bomb Baghdad


In retrospect the Iraq war was really a moment of bonding for Americans.

- Bipartisan support (Both the Bushes and Clintons loved the idea)
- Hating against Saddam (Saddam was universally hated)
- Multi-racial support (Condi and Powell were in as well as Cheney and Rummy)
- Against the communists (only Bernie voted against)
- Rich and poor suffered equally (poor because they got shot, rich because they fucked it all up and it blew up their careers and stocks later)
🤴

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14262 on: February 14, 2018, 06:31:41 PM »
lol, no offense, but that is a pretty odd metric to measure foreign policy success.

I have no problem talking about many of the missteps of the Obama administration on foreign policy, but I'm not sure this makes that case in any real way.

On Iraq, its not really that strange that Iraq's economy turned around(in terms of GDP) after decades of crippling sanctions were lifted and we injected billions into their economy to try and (poorly) rebuild the country after an invasion destroyed large pockets of the economic hubs of the country.

Syria is even more bizarre, what exactly would you of proposed the Obama administration do in Syria that would of stopped the emerging Civil War that has led to an enormous refugee crisis and countless deaths? I think the "compared to what" is where I often fail to get good answers that aren't littered with asterisks. So it's why I have had a more difficult time criticizing Obama's handling of that.

I think as we see now in Syria, there really are not a lot of good answers that don't involve major escalation or support of genocide. The former risks both a repeat of Iraq and the potential for even greater escalation as you are butting up against major geopolitical rivals that have vested interest in the governing regime.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 06:37:15 PM by Nola »

Nintex

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14263 on: February 14, 2018, 06:38:57 PM »
People who mention the Iraq economy always forget that with one pen stroke Georgie signed away all their debt.
Because loans issued to Saddam weren't valid or something.

The debt of an entire nation, gone.

Assad on the other hand had to lend money from Russia and Iran as well as give away lucrative natural resources to Rosneft and sell weapons to North Korea (an increasingly risky venture).
Putin isn't helping out for free.

The Trump giveth and the Trump taketh away
https://twitter.com/ReutersUS/status/963920814549725184
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:03:25 PM by Nintex »
🤴

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14264 on: February 14, 2018, 07:07:34 PM »
lol, no offense, but that is a pretty odd metric to measure foreign policy success.
Actually, I'm measuring the depth of catastrophe.

Quote
I have no problem talking about many of the missteps of the Obama administration on foreign policy, but I'm not sure this makes that case in any real way.
Such a discussion is totally inconceivable to me because I don't know of anything else Obama did wrong, and especially so wrong. Libya? Crimea? Iran? Korean Peninsula?

Quote
On Iraq, its not really that strange that Iraq's economy turned around(in terms of GDP) after decades of crippling sanctions were lifted and we injected billions into their economy to try and (poorly) rebuild the country after an invasion destroyed large pockets of the economic hubs of the country.
Syria deserves reconstruction, too.

Quote
Syria is even more bizarre, what exactly would you of proposed the Obama administration do in Syria that would of stopped the emerging Civil War that has led to an enormous refugee crisis and countless deaths? I think the "compared to what" is where I often fail to get good answers that aren't littered with asterisks. So it's why I have had a more difficult time criticizing Obama's handling of that.
Don't give weapons to rebel groups if you're not going to guarantee that the Civil War will end because of it. Enforce a no fly zone so that the Syrian air force doesn't terrorize civilians or gas children. Optional: be willing to negotiate with Assad regime so that, in exchange for democratic elections and release of political prisoners and handing over WMDs, UN coalition forces secure country against fundamentalist death cults. And lastly, when the region becomes a giant proxy war for various interest groups who do not have the restraint becoming of civilized nations, be willing to utilize military hegemony and enforce the Pax America by bringing together the various parties and establishing who-gets-what.

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I think as we see now in Syria, there really are not a lot of good answers that don't involve major escalation or support of genocide. The former risks both a repeat of Iraq and the potential for even greater escalation as you are butting up against major geopolitical rivals that have vested interest in the governing regime.
I agree that supporting a genocidal regime is against American interests. But we did not have to flood the region with weapons. We did not have to sit idly by as a dictator shells suburbs indiscriminately with artillery. And where do sectarian militias come from? Where do they get their weapons from? Guns and rockets don't appear out of thin air. The US, and the UN, and civilized nations have a responsibility to not add fuel to the fire and punish actors that do. There were many options. We instead chose the worst thing possible, which was support the "other side" just enough so that there was no government, so that chaos bled into Iraq two years after we withdrew, so that chemical weapons would continue being used against innocent non combatants, so that the worst human tragedy since Rwanda would grace the world and no one did anything except make it worse despite the rest of the world not doing anything else at the time except sitting on its vast wealth and wondering if they'd suffer political consequences if they did the right thing.
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kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14265 on: February 14, 2018, 07:26:18 PM »
Damn, you really DO like Hitchens!

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14266 on: February 14, 2018, 07:45:33 PM »
He once said, "Show me a single country Kissinger left off better than he found it." I wondered for a long time how the man who dragged Reagan through the mud for Grenada would become among the longest and most vocal supporters of the Iraq War (not just in 2003 but as early as '98). And eventually I realized, not through mental contortion but through simple moral principles, he had been consistent all along. Although I'm sure he was just jealous of Susan Sontag getting her name on a Sarajevo town square.
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Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14267 on: February 14, 2018, 07:57:52 PM »
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Don't give weapons to rebel groups if you're not going to guarantee that the Civil War will end because of it. Enforce a no fly zone so that the Syrian air force doesn't terrorize civilians or gas children. Optional: be willing to negotiate with Assad regime so that, in exchange for democratic elections and release of political prisoners and handing over WMDs, UN coalition forces secure country against fundamentalist death cults. And lastly, when the region becomes a giant proxy war for various interest groups who do not have the restraint becoming of civilized nations, be willing to utilize military hegemony and enforce the Pax America by bringing together the various parties and establishing who-gets-what.

I'd start my critique of Obama with the tepid escalation strategy in Afghanistan. A strategy that Trump seems to have doubled down on. But that is not really relevant.

On Syria, so then you are stuck in the position of genocide or potential regime change with further escalatory potential, which are both not exactly desirable strategies.

On the no-fly zone, here is Susan Rice's comment on that. I think it is a pretty fair counter-argument to the sort of arguments people like Evelyn Farkas were going around talking about during that same time:

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34:34 Charlie Rose: So you look for alternatives and couldn't find them, even though they are.

34:37 Susan Rice: We didn't find suitable alternatives, satisfactory. Of course, there were people advocating for a "no fly."

34:43Charlie Rose: Exactly.

34:44 Susan Rice: So let's talk about that, for example. What would a "no fly" zone have done? The "no fly" zone, the concept was to create a swath of territory, most of the time it was discussed on the northern border of Syria with Turkey, where people could flee the fighting and have relative security, okay. That was the concept. "No fly" zone, however, and, by the way, just to be clear, and try to prevent Assad from using air power, barrel bombs, whatever, against civilians, we could have done that, but it would have been at great cost to the counter ISIL campaign in terms of diversion of assets and resources. We have --

35:25 Charlie Rose: We don't have enough power to do both?

35:27 Susan Rice: We're doing a lot of things in the world simultaneously. And no, the answer is, had we chosen to enforce the significant "no fly" zone, we would have taken assets away from the counter ISIL fight in Iraq and Syria. That's the choice we could have made. It wasn't one we thought was directly serving our proximate interests. Moreover, you can't just have folks, you know, protecting people on the ground through air power in the sky. You need to have somebody on the ground providing that protection. And there wasn't, NATO country, not Turkey, not anybody at that time, willing to provide that kind of protection. So, it was an idea that sounded good in theory, but when you peeled it back and talked about what would it actually entail, what diminution of our support for the ISIL campaign. Who is going to provide the ground force? How many air caps would that require? It didn't end up making sense.

I think that is what I am talking about when I mention asterisk when it comes alternative strategies. The US did not have the coordinating resources to commit, or the commitment from allies, to effectively enforce a no-fly zone from the ground without a diversion or significant and notable escalation of resources. I don't have a problem with people saying that trade-off was perhaps the superior strategy, acknowledging the trade offs and risks that come with that strategy, but to frame it like it is an obvious blunder is a bit disingenuous IMO.

Which gets to you point about UN forces,  its hard to anchor an alternative strategy around cooperation from people that were not providing any significant military cooperation at the time. And Assad had no interest in stepping aside, which is the major part of why this escalated in the first place. Why this continues to be an elusive and difficult thing to figure out IMO. We didn't start the Civil War, and the country was going to be on a path of destabilization with or without our intervention. You had the splitting of the free Syrian Army, that fracturing into ISIS factions, which we were primarily focusing resources on, the emergence of multiple militias and rebel groups. Without any intervention, there is a strong case to be made that Assad and their Russian allies see that as an opening to further bulldoze and engage with the use of illegal chemical weapons and draconian pacification tactics to bring the country under heel.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 08:03:45 PM by Nola »

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14268 on: February 14, 2018, 08:08:32 PM »
There are a lot of assumptions in that response I fundamentally disagree with but before I respond I want to take the time to reread Leon Panetta's memoir.

RE: the splitting of the FSA, I also want to listen to what Robert Ford had to say about that again, because I remember him being extremely frustrated over our noncommittal and tepid support of them.

EDIT: I like THIS Obama a lot better.
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Out of the blue I asked, “Have you ever read Reinhold Niebuhr?”

Obama’s tone changed. “I love him. He’s one of my favorite philosophers.”

So I asked, What do you take away from him?

“I take away,” Obama answered in a rush of words, “the compelling idea that there’s serious evil in the world, and hardship and pain. And we should be humble and modest in our belief we can eliminate those things. But we shouldn’t use that as an excuse for cynicism and inaction. I take away ... the sense we have to make these efforts knowing they are hard, and not swinging from naïve idealism to bitter realism.”
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 08:37:15 PM by Shostakovich »
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Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14269 on: February 14, 2018, 09:05:46 PM »
So we've moved on from "okay Iraq was a mistake but that shouldn't ruin Christopher Hitchens' reputation" to apologetics for the war itself.

Cool. Great.

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14270 on: February 14, 2018, 09:12:39 PM »
There are a lot of assumptions in that response I fundamentally disagree with but before I respond I want to take the time to reread Leon Panetta's memoir.

RE: the splitting of the FSA, I also want to listen to what Robert Ford had to say about that again, because I remember him being extremely frustrated over our noncommittal and tepid support of them.

The FSA unquestionably saw a lot of fracturing and desertion, how much to ISIS and how much to other organizations is certainly up for debate, the FSA was paying a pittance, there was reportedly a lot of morale issues midway in, but I guess how much desertion and to where could be contentious? Saying split implies a 50% drop and that was not what I meant to imply. But I don't really think that has a whole lot to do with the points I was trying to make from my side?

I mean you had a conflict that saw roughly 75,000 deaths by the time America really started to intervene on the side of the rebels with actual military support, not just passive aid. Is the argument the fault that we should of unilaterally gone all in at that point? Committed active ground troops to engage and advance the rebels positions? Just not of done anything? I guess on the later their is a callous political argument that like Darfur, if you just refuse to engage at all, history will tend to look past that indiscretion rather quickly. But I am not sure I agree with your argument that if America had just not committed, they would of prevented civilian suffering. The Syrian government was actively losing territory, they were taking heavy loses, even without the aid of American military support, the conflict was seemingly poised to be extremely bloody even without American intervention on that front.

I think at the end of the day you have to look at it on initial principles and philosophy. If you take the assumption that pacifying the humanitarian crisis and the regime's aggressive behavior would take a large number of troops on the ground and long-term commitment to rebuilding the country, similar to Iraq, but with even greater geopolitical risk due to the regimes alliances and commitments, which I think is a fair assumption, the question becomes, are you willing to engage in that? If the answer is no, which it was for the Obama administration, it becomes a lot harder for me to really shame the Obama administration's decisions following that initial stance.

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14271 on: February 14, 2018, 09:22:12 PM »
Haven't had the chance to read most of this but I want to clarify that I meant split to be synonymous with fracture.
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Brehvolution

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14272 on: February 14, 2018, 09:34:43 PM »
He once said, "Show me a single country Kissinger left off better than he found it." I wondered for a long time how the man who dragged Reagan through the mud for Grenada would become among the longest and most vocal supporters of the Iraq War (not just in 2003 but as early as '98). And eventually I realized, not through mental contortion but through simple moral principles, he had been consistent all along. Although I'm sure he was just jealous of Susan Sontag getting her name on a Sarajevo town square.

Or maybe he just had stock in Halliburton.  :thinking
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curly

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14273 on: February 14, 2018, 09:41:40 PM »
Wonder how Iraqis feel about Bush's foreign policy and if they're better off because of it

Brehvolution

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14274 on: February 14, 2018, 09:44:44 PM »
Uhh...  aren't we greeted as liberators?

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Liberators of ISIS!   :dice
[close]
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curly

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14275 on: February 14, 2018, 09:50:35 PM »
The whole idea is so stupid. Syria was a civil war, in Iraq we were the ones that started the fucking catastrophe. You can't compare them like for like. There wouldn't even be an ISIS without Iraq. You could argue plausibly that there wouldn't have been a Syrian civil war without Iraq.

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14276 on: February 14, 2018, 09:51:00 PM »
Well, here's Burham Salih, former Kurdish prime minister and also former deputy prime minister of Iraq:
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... for those of us who lived under the tyranny of Saddam Hussein and understand what tyranny means, ... the difficulties of today, the pains of today, and the disappointments of today—and they are very profound, because Iraqis deserve better—these pale in comparison to what we had to endure. ... Then, people had the certainty of the knock on the door late at night, and could possibly end up in a mass grave. Two weeks ago, in Erbil, the capital of Iraqi Kurdistan, a new mass grave in which there were some five-six people who were shot. Their families never heard from them since 1988. They were found and they could only be identified by the pajamas they were wearing as they were taken from home. These are the type of stories that my people, my community, had to endure.

[...] In my view—and I say this without equivocation; I say this in Kurdish; I say this in Arabic when I'm in Baghdad—this has been fundamentally a failure of leadership by the Iraqi elite that assumed power after the demise of Saddam Hussein.
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shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14277 on: February 14, 2018, 09:58:42 PM »
The whole idea is so stupid. Syria was a civil war, in Iraq we were the ones that started the fucking catastrophe. You can't compare them like for like. There wouldn't even be an ISIS without Iraq. You could argue plausibly that there wouldn't have been a Syrian civil war without Iraq.
So much of this is wrong. Iraq and Syria were both dictatorships and both of them became embroiled in sectarian civil war. They are absolutely comparable. There wouldn't have been an ISIS without Syria, not Iraq (did you forget where it reached critical mass?). And I shudder to think what Saddam Hussein would have done if Assad's country was falling apart next door.
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curly

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14278 on: February 14, 2018, 10:01:14 PM »
OK let's hear from the Sunnis and Shiites now

Or the hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis

The whole idea is so stupid. Syria was a civil war, in Iraq we were the ones that started the fucking catastrophe. You can't compare them like for like. There wouldn't even be an ISIS without Iraq. You could argue plausibly that there wouldn't have been a Syrian civil war without Iraq.
So much of this is wrong. Iraq and Syria were both dictatorships and both of them became embroiled in sectarian civil war. They are absolutely comparable. There wouldn't have been an ISIS without Syria, not Iraq (did you forget where it reached critical mass?). And I shudder to think what Saddam Hussein would have done if Assad's country was falling apart next door.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:19:43 PM by curly »

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #14279 on: February 14, 2018, 10:02:01 PM »
I remember someone (Daniel Davies?) pointing out circa 2005-6 that Hitchens had gone from "why isn't the media covering all the good news from Iraq?" to "why isn't the media covering the country outside of the Sunni triangle?" to "why isn't the media covering Kurdistan?"