Author Topic: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo  (Read 785402 times)

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Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1800 on: July 30, 2019, 09:22:59 PM »
Isn't discussing the contradictions in the liberal intellectual tradition (from the left and right) pretty much the point of this entire thread? :doge

It used to be about bullying Assimilate into reading Settlers Maps of Meaning.

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1801 on: July 30, 2019, 09:23:16 PM »
Do you believe in the principle that humans should be endowed with certain unalienable rights?

I don't think people have the right to own slaves, no.

Leadbelly

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1802 on: July 30, 2019, 09:24:49 PM »
Right so, you have to dodge the question instead. There you go. You know the answer. :p

Edit: okay I am bored of this now. Might as well post your random tweets that you do.

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1803 on: July 30, 2019, 09:26:09 PM »
Right so, you have to dodge the question instead. There you go. You know the answer. :p

do you think workers should have the surplus value of their labor stolen away from them?

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1804 on: July 30, 2019, 09:30:20 PM »
there is a devastating burn that I have refrained from using because it would hurt leadbelly too much

If it's about Patek Philippe references being horribly dated haute horlogerie then I feel you.

how is a proletarian so well versed in luxury wristwear?

I had a rage post about service times and their biggest news at Baselworld 2019 being a khaki green dial Aquanaut with a white gold case before I just closed the tab in disgust.

:goty

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Strictly speaking I'm petit bourgeois but the distinction between "petit bourgeois who directly sells their labor" and a proletarian is murky, if not artificial.
[close]

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1805 on: July 30, 2019, 09:31:30 PM »
Oh is that what it is. It just comes across like a series of dumb questions.


No, what i really mean is...I...errr...feel really hard done by. Yeah... <.< >.>


Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1806 on: July 30, 2019, 09:34:38 PM »
I would be more impressed if it wasn't copy pasta.

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1807 on: July 30, 2019, 09:34:39 PM »
is that because Mandark read Settlers?

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1808 on: July 30, 2019, 09:40:45 PM »
I would be more impressed if it wasn't copy pasta.
it's not copypasta, it's Lenin :ussrcry

Should have been someone a little more obscure like Harry Haywood. You'd get hipster brownie points then.

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1809 on: July 30, 2019, 09:40:50 PM »
And after all of that I'm still gonna think it was important to pass the ACA. In my heart of hearts I'll probably always be a vaguely utilitarian softy.

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1810 on: July 30, 2019, 09:41:24 PM »

Leadbelly

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1811 on: July 30, 2019, 09:42:38 PM »
Oh actually 'brownie' points i mean.

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1812 on: July 30, 2019, 09:45:44 PM »
buddy I love you

team filler

  • filler
  • filler
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1813 on: July 30, 2019, 09:52:11 PM »
 ::)
*****

agrajag

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1814 on: July 30, 2019, 09:53:03 PM »
someone's feeling jealous

Leadbelly

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1815 on: July 30, 2019, 09:56:12 PM »
Filler gives me likes when I am feeling lonely.

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1816 on: July 30, 2019, 09:59:36 PM »
Is calling Assimilate the liberal professor a deep cut to the liberal trucker meme?

Should the classical liberal trucker be a meme for this thread?

agrajag

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1817 on: July 30, 2019, 10:00:04 PM »
Filler gives me likes when I am feeling lonely.

filler is basically the social safety net in the Bire's like economy

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1818 on: July 30, 2019, 10:04:46 PM »
Filler gives me likes when I am feeling lonely.

filler is basically the social safety net in the Bire's like economy

He's like Tom from MySpace.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I wonder how many people will get that reference
[close]

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1819 on: July 30, 2019, 10:06:58 PM »
Filler gives me likes when I am feeling lonely.

filler is basically the social safety net in the Bire's like economy

He's like Tom from MySpace.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I wonder how many people will get that reference
[close]

I was very active in the Myspace forums circa 2002ish

Oblivion

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1820 on: July 30, 2019, 10:07:38 PM »
I don't like identity politics. I don't subscribe to it.

Yes..we know this. The issue is that you're obsessed with that shit.

Quote
And so in threads like this it is more likely to be videos like that. Which is what the thread was intended for, no? The continuation of wank dad?

Except that when we post articles/tweets from/about them, we do so in order to mock them, whereas you post to praise them.

Quote
And lack of respect for whom?

For pretty much everyone in this thread. You come struttin' in here all like 'how do you do, fellow leftists?" and proceed to post shit like a video of stefan molyneux talking about how black people have low IQs and going 'now, i don't agree with everything said here, but he's so eloquent and you gotta admit, it's a pretty interesting discussion!".

and when you're called out on this bullshit, you insist you're not that different from anyone here. sure, you would LIKE to have the workers seize the means of production some day, but not before people like linda sarsour and anita sarkeesian are imprisoned first.

Leadbelly

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1821 on: July 30, 2019, 10:08:50 PM »
Filler gives me likes when I am feeling lonely.

filler is basically the social safety net in the Bire's like economy

He's like Tom from MySpace.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I wonder how many people will get that reference
[close]

I was very active in the Myspace forums circa 2002ish

Oh. I wasn't, but I remember making a Myspace account and automatically get a friend and wondering who the fuck it was. lol

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1822 on: July 30, 2019, 10:13:21 PM »
Filler gives me likes when I am feeling lonely.

filler is basically the social safety net in the Bire's like economy

He's like Tom from MySpace.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I wonder how many people will get that reference
[close]

I was very active in the Myspace forums circa 2002ish

Oh. I wasn't, but I remember making a Myspace account and automatically get a friend and wondering who the fuck it was. lol

he was the grand daddy of like farming

but seriously, myspace had legitimately underrated forums. It had a robust atheist community, which was my bag in my late teens/early 20's

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1823 on: July 30, 2019, 10:14:48 PM »
I don't like identity politics. I don't subscribe to it.

Yes..we know this. The issue is that you're obsessed with that shit.

Quote
And so in threads like this it is more likely to be videos like that. Which is what the thread was intended for, no? The continuation of wank dad?

Except that when we post articles/tweets from/about them, we do so in order to mock them, whereas you post to praise them.

Quote
And lack of respect for whom?

For pretty much everyone in this thread. You come struttin' in here all like 'how do you do, fellow leftists?" and proceed to post shit like a video of stefan molyneux talking about how black people have low IQs and going 'now, i don't agree with everything said here, but he's so eloquent and you gotta admit, it's a pretty interesting discussion!".

and when you're called out on this bullshit, you insist you're not that different from anyone here. sure, you would LIKE to have the workers seize the means of production some day, but not before people like linda sarsour and anita sarkeesian are imprisoned first.

I've never posted a Stefan Molyneux video.

Why is it when people describe someone they have to exaggerate to make them appear like a complete cunt? It's not just you, people tend to do that. That's particularly true when you're young though.

I would suggest, which you probably won't do, going back and looking at the videos I've posted and seeing exactly how many are what you think they are. Ultimately though, I listen to many different channels and personalities, and like most people, I gravitate to some more than others. So they will always be of a certain flavour. None obviously will be particularly 'woke'.

agrajag

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1824 on: July 30, 2019, 10:17:44 PM »
I think this whole kerfuffle is mostly due to your inability to read the room tbh

Leadbelly

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1825 on: July 30, 2019, 10:20:02 PM »
I guess...

However, it appeared to be a continuation of the previous thread, which was kind of about those types of videos. So in my mind I am on topic.

Oblivion

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1826 on: July 30, 2019, 10:20:20 PM »
Oh and to be clear, Leadbelly, I'm not saying that you shouldn't post that stuff in here, or that you're not allowed to dissent.

Go ahead, do all that. It's actually more fun when people argue. I'm just saying stop trying to pretend that you're somebody you're not. You wanna post a contrarian take or defend one of the wank dads/moms, go for it. but don't try to distract by going 'hey hold on guys, you might think i have shitty opinions, but i have GOOD ones (that i'll almost never post) that you might agree with as well!"

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1827 on: July 30, 2019, 10:23:19 PM »
I guess...

However, it appeared to be a continuation of the previous thread, which was kind of about those types of videos. So in my mind I am on topic.

I think that it's quite clear that the thread has long moved on from its original dynamic, which was basically Etiolate stanning for Daddy P vs. everyone else. The shift has started around the time he was permanently banned from the forum. His disciple Assimilate tried to half-heartedly carry on his legacy, until his own demise. But hey, it seems you are ready and willing to take up Etiolate's mantle.

OnlyRegret

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1828 on: July 30, 2019, 10:24:52 PM »
I guess...

However, it appeared to be a continuation of the previous thread, which was kind of about those types of videos. So in my mind I am on topic.

I think that it's quite clear that the thread has long moved on from its original dynamic, which was basically Etiolate stanning for Daddy P vs. everyone else. The shift has started around the time he was permanently banned from the forum. His disciple Assimilate tried to half-heartedly carry on his legacy, until his own demise. But hey, it seems you are ready and willing to take up Etiolate's mantle.


Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1829 on: July 30, 2019, 10:28:10 PM »
to defend leadbelly, his pattern of making bad posts then complaining when people roast him is very much in line with the spirit of this thread and its op

Leadbelly

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1830 on: July 30, 2019, 10:28:34 PM »
Oh and to be clear, Leadbelly, I'm not saying that you shouldn't post that stuff in here, or that you're not allowed to dissent.

Go ahead, do all that. It's actually more fun when people argue. I'm just saying stop trying to pretend that you're somebody you're not. You wanna post a contrarian take or defend one of the wank dads/moms, go for it. but don't try to distract by going 'hey hold on guys, you might think i have shitty opinions, but i have GOOD ones (that i'll almost never post) that you might agree with as well!"

I will argue that this is just a perception. Funny enough, I never actually thought I was dissenting as much as you think. The RE thread never gives me that impression. So the idea I am just coming in here just to fuck with you with contrarian viewpoints is not actually true. Although, I have become more aware of that through interacting. But initially that wasn't my intention. Neither do I actually explain a lot what I have posted, I have just posted it. So the 'hold on guys' is actually in your head. You're guessing my intention in posting what I post.

Weirdly, the one video I have written something was the Katie Hopkins one. And that pretty  much is the only one I think. And that actually suggests something. That the reason I felt I needed to say something was a preemption of how it might be received.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 10:32:46 PM by Leadbelly »

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1831 on: July 30, 2019, 10:41:59 PM »
The fate of the Bore's Peterson stans:

etiolate: repeatedly uploaded his folder of starving children pics to The Bore to commit digital suicide, has yet to break open Seth Rich case.

hungrynoob: slowly drifted from JP's philosophy of masculine healing crystals to being a full-blown Qanon follower, seems to be shifting towards more normie rightwing talking points.

Assimilate: 15 year old girls talking about intersectional feminism on their Supernatural fandom tumblr blogs forced him to support Bolsonaro and to stay in a loveless relationship. As far as we know, is still eluding the liberal truckers' plots against his life.

Shostakovich: There are whispers that he once defended Peterson, but all his posts from that era have been sealed by an aggressive campaign of DMCA complaints. When asked recently about women wearing red lipstick at work he responded "it's probably fine" with a barely noticeable facial tic.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 10:46:05 PM by Mandark »

Leadbelly

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1832 on: July 30, 2019, 10:43:21 PM »
Oblivion, this is the video I posted prior the Katie Hopkins one.
http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=45681.msg2672508#msg2672508

I mentioned nothing about it, you'll notice, I just posted it. This is what I have done for most of my videos. I can't recall when I last actually made a comment about it. I probably have, it is just not often. This is my usual posting habit. And just as a point of detail, neither of these people are right wing either, they are both left wing. However, the topic of discussion is very similar to other videos I post.

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1833 on: July 30, 2019, 10:44:39 PM »
This was a border skirmish in a larger fight but as I was someone who linked Pinker itt: claiming he's on the left after his recent debate with Jason Hickel stretches credulity, and not just because he opened his rebuttal with, "Not sure why I should be the one to defend the consensus on global economic development against a Marxist ideologue enabled by the Guardian," (powerful commitment to free speech vibes from that dependent clause) but because even using a left / right spectrum wherein left terminates after historical liberalism, Hickel's ultimate position is fundamentally liberal: the economic periphery and semi-periphery aren't allowed to have self-determination, historically via colonial dispossession, and presently through being unable to tax the multinationals that operate within their borders with an equitable application of law.

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1834 on: July 30, 2019, 10:48:11 PM »
gotta say, bristling at people labelling ben shapiro as far right and calling sam harris left-wing makes for some pretty interesting political cartography

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1835 on: July 30, 2019, 10:52:52 PM »
I think the term 'spectrum' is a good word for this. I mentioned Glenn Greenwald in a previous post. Go on RE and you will find to some on there Greenwald doesn't pass the purity test. People will play the same game of suspicion. I think the problem is people want to own these terms and make them fit solidly with their own worldviews. This person can't be left because he doesn't agree with x,y,z.

To be honest, I'm not really sure I care. As I said before, the terms have become meaningless to me, and this example kind of proves why.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 11:00:43 PM by Leadbelly »

Leadbelly

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1836 on: July 30, 2019, 10:58:07 PM »
gotta say, bristling at people labelling ben shapiro as far right and calling sam harris left-wing makes for some pretty interesting political cartography

Was it ben shapiro? It's funny, you say I make bad arguments, but I thought my reasoning was totally sound on that term. As I said, the term far-right is associated with white supremacy. In most people's minds when they hear far-right they pretty much hear Nazi. And there is a good reason for this. It is because historically that was what the term suggested.

I also recall someone arguing that it doesn't mean that. Well, it seems like it doesn't mean that now, it has been broadened along with other terms. It comes across as a political tool to silence people you disagree with.

I posted this video to prove it is not just in my head:


And now I am thinking, maybe it is a European thing? I don't know.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 11:02:57 PM by Leadbelly »

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1837 on: July 30, 2019, 11:07:45 PM »
I think the term 'spectrum' is a good word for this. I mentioned Glenn Greenwald in a previous post. Go on RE and you will find to some on there Greenwald doesn't pass the purity test. People will play the same game of suspicion. I think the problem is people want to own these terms and make them fit solidly with their own worldviews. This person can't be left because he doesn't agree with x,y,z.

To be honest, I'm not really sure I care. As I said before, the terms have become meaningless to me, and this example kind of proves why.

I'm not so sure he even considers himsef a man of the left, considering he's used "leftist" to describe nambla and islamist organizations

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1838 on: July 30, 2019, 11:13:21 PM »
I think the term 'spectrum' is a good word for this. I mentioned Glenn Greenwald in a previous post. Go on RE and you will find to some on there Greenwald doesn't pass the purity test. People will play the same game of suspicion. I think the problem is people want to own these terms and make them fit solidly with their own worldviews. This person can't be left because he doesn't agree with x,y,z.

To be honest, I'm not really sure I care. As I said before, the terms have become meaningless to me, and this example kind of proves why.

I'm not so sure he even considers himsef a man of the left, considering he's used "leftist" to describe nambla and islamist organizations

I don't know what you are referring to, so obviously I can't be sure what was meant or what was actually said in context. However, possibly he is distinguishing 'leftists' from 'liberals' which is a semantic trick some people do I notice. Basically means they don't necessarily subscribe to a certain set of beliefs but still idnetify with the left, so they feel they need to distinguish.

I think he describes himself as left of centre. Basically a moderate lefty.

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1839 on: July 30, 2019, 11:16:28 PM »
it wasn't said to distinguish left from liberal, but left from right

Leadbelly

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1840 on: July 30, 2019, 11:23:49 PM »
it wasn't said to distinguish left from liberal, but left from right

I've just remembered something Pinker said that I thought was absolutely spot on. lol

"The mythical left pole, where all directions are right".

When people hold opinions that are against a particular orthodoxy, they automatically get labelled right-wing. It is just a psychological trick some people play with themselves that allows them to dismiss people.


Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1841 on: July 30, 2019, 11:26:16 PM »
When people hold opinions that are against a particular orthodoxy, they automatically get labelled right-wing. It is just a psychological trick some people play with themselves that allows them to dismiss people.

idk sounds like you're the one using a trick to let yourself dismiss people rather than engage with their arguments

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1842 on: July 30, 2019, 11:34:42 PM »
When people hold opinions that are against a particular orthodoxy, they automatically get labelled right-wing. It is just a psychological trick some people play with themselves that allows them to dismiss people.

idk sounds like you're the one using a trick to let yourself dismiss people rather than engage with their arguments

Forget what my intentions are. What you should be concerned with is, is there merit to my argument. So that far-right point I made. I said I thought my aversion to that term was based on sound reasoning. It either is or it isn't.

Have you ever seen me dismiss anyone on here, without actually presenting an argument for why? I always give you a reason right, whether you agree or disagree, I will always do that. I don't just say, 'this is bullshit' just because.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 11:43:59 PM by Leadbelly »

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1843 on: July 30, 2019, 11:43:31 PM »
Forget what my intentions are. What you should be concerned with is, is there merit to my argument.

you reiterate this belief a lot but it's wrong and you probably don't even believe it

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1844 on: July 30, 2019, 11:44:43 PM »
also, you just approvingly paraphrased stephen pinker making an argument that works specifically by impugning other people's intentions (they're just using a trick so they can dismiss someone!)

can't just turn around and cry foul when it's applied the other way

be better

jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1845 on: July 30, 2019, 11:47:26 PM »
he has values consistent with classical liberalism
this statement is next to meaningless
Quote
or the Enlightenment
this statement is for sure meaningless. At any rate, you need to substantiate/unpack what you mean by these loaded terms. Who, specifically, and if possible, which texts, do you have in mind here by “classical liberal” or “enlightenment”? Both terms are post hoc (for the most part) classifications for a range of thinkers/writers that were anything but univocal in what they were committed to. Further, they’ve shifted meaning and extension throughout their histories. Mandarks point about Mill having no compunctions about participating in the Raj despite being considered the paradigmatic ‘classical liberal’ is a judicious one, and shows up a complicated dialogue within the liberal tradition about empire and subaltern peoples, among other things.

That said, ultimately it just stems from a basic idea: the freedom of the individual. As obviously 'liber' simply mean 'free'. Free man. That's all it is.
this obscures two points about the development of liberalism:

i) the meaning of ‘freedom’ and ‘liberty’ are exactly what get contested when people try to push their particular liberalisms. What you probably have in mind is negative liberty but it’s not obvious that this is the only tenable view and the history of liberalism is littered with people with a different conception of ‘liberty’. This sep article is helpful.

ii) The liberal tradition, through to the start of the First World War, isn’t particularly interested in emphasizing the ‘individual’ as the locus of ‘rights’, at least not over against a larger body of people like ‘society’, or whatever. The distinction between ‘individualism’ and ‘collectivism’ is largely a vestige of 20th century liberals rewriting the historiography of ‘liberalism’ to combat not just fascism and soviet communism but also the laissez faire 19th century liberals whose ‘liberalism’ was seen to have failed to prevent the former systems from rising to power.

There are additional points I’d make here, like how liberals like Bentham, the Mills, Dewey are more than sanguine on the states role in moulding a liberal* citizenry through e.g. public education (which id hope would give the lie to liberalism being allergic to state coercion), or how there are structural/kuhnian losses when we try to prioritize certain ‘liberties’ that we view as safeguarding the individual such that we unintentionally/indirectly infringe ‘individual’s liberties’ somewhere else (a diabolically Hegelian point :snob).

*this use of the term ‘liberal’ is where we still find it resonate with its premodern sense. It’s such an old term that it’s difficult to disentangle without invoking it’s entire history, which is about as old as our recorded political tradition.

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1846 on: July 30, 2019, 11:55:57 PM »
Forget what my intentions are. What you should be concerned with is, is there merit to my argument.

you reiterate this belief a lot but it's wrong and you probably don't even believe it

Yeah. I recall going through this with you before. There seems to be a bit of a blind spot there. I find it hard to understand why there is disagreement there.

If a serial killer said the sky is blue, it doesn't mean he must be wrong because he is a serial killer. The sky is blue.

Look it is not up to me whether you agree or disagree, it is up to you. And ultimately you either see logic in an argument or you do not. What you shouldn't be doing however is looking for ways to disagree simply because of a person's political leanings or whatever.

And I genuinely believe it because I realised it is actully beneficial to do this for my own intellectual development. It does me no good in the long run to hold to falsehoods. But it is hard to see that sometimes. And we're all ultimately biased creatures which includes myself. It is hard to get around that. When you listen to someone you fundamentally diagree with it is hard to listen. What you tend to do is find ways to dismiss them. Lets say one thing they say is inaccurate. That's enough for us to dismiss everything they say. Because we don't like what they have to say to begin with.

Again though, it's when you realise it is not actually beneficial to yourself that things seem to click. Not that you will be rid of all bias, but probably more aware of you're own infallibility on that matter.

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1847 on: July 31, 2019, 12:01:42 AM »
I really appreciate jake's posts in these threads, where he manages to explain and contextualize some complicated ideas while managing to keep it clear, concise, and respectful.

Whereas my posts have devolved into the equivalent of an early 00's WWE crowd yelling "WHAT" after every clause in someone else's monologue.

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1848 on: July 31, 2019, 12:02:48 AM »
If a serial killer said the sky is blue, it doesn't mean he must be wrong because he is a serial killer.

if you wanted to know what color the sky was, would you try to find it out by going to a prison and asking a serial killer on some mindhunter shit?

OnlyRegret

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1849 on: July 31, 2019, 12:06:04 AM »

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1850 on: July 31, 2019, 12:11:41 AM »
he has values consistent with classical liberalism
this statement is next to meaningless
Quote
or the Enlightenment
this statement is for sure meaningless. At any rate, you need to substantiate/unpack what you mean by these loaded terms. Who, specifically, and if possible, which texts, do you have in mind here by “classical liberal” or “enlightenment”? Both terms are post hoc (for the most part) classifications for a range of thinkers/writers that were anything but univocal in what they were committed to. Further, they’ve shifted meaning and extension throughout their histories. Mandarks point about Mill having no compunctions about participating in the Raj despite being considered the paradigmatic ‘classical liberal’ is a judicious one, and shows up a complicated dialogue within the liberal tradition about empire and subaltern peoples, among other things.

That said, ultimately it just stems from a basic idea: the freedom of the individual. As obviously 'liber' simply mean 'free'. Free man. That's all it is.
this obscures two points about the development of liberalism:

i) the meaning of ‘freedom’ and ‘liberty’ are exactly what get contested when people try to push their particular liberalisms. What you probably have in mind is negative liberty but it’s not obvious that this is the only tenable view and the history of liberalism is littered with people with a different conception of ‘liberty’. This sep article is helpful.

ii) The liberal tradition, through to the start of the First World War, isn’t particularly interested in emphasizing the ‘individual’ as the locus of ‘rights’, at least not over against a larger body of people like ‘society’, or whatever. The distinction between ‘individualism’ and ‘collectivism’ is largely a vestige of 20th century liberals rewriting the historiography of ‘liberalism’ to combat not just fascism and soviet communism but also the laissez faire 19th century liberals whose ‘liberalism’ was seen to have failed to prevent the former systems from rising to power.

There are additional points I’d make here, like how liberals like Bentham, the Mills, Dewey are more than sanguine on the states role in moulding a liberal* citizenry through e.g. public education (which id hope would give the lie to liberalism being allergic to state coercion), or how there are structural/kuhnian losses when we try to prioritize certain ‘liberties’ that we view as safeguarding the individual such that we unintentionally/indirectly infringe ‘individual’s liberties’ somewhere else (a diabolically Hegelian point :snob).

*this use of the term ‘liberal’ is where we still find it resonate with its premodern sense. It’s such an old term that it’s difficult to disentangle without invoking it’s entire history, which is about as old as our recorded political tradition.


Obviously historically speaking there were a whole variety of views. In that sense it is far more complex. However, if someone was to talk about Enlightenment 'values' obviously they are talking about a certain set of ideas that came from that period, but not necessarily expressed by every thinker. Something like 'freedom of speech' for instance.

And I summarised liberalism into one sentence, which can't be in some sense anything but crude. However, I am talking about the root of liberalism in essence rather than the fruit of all liberal thought, which is an incredibly big and complex thing.

In fact the very first paragraph of the article you posted states this.

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(i) Liberals have typically maintained that humans are naturally in “a State of perfect Freedom to order their Actions…as they think fit…without asking leave, or depending on the Will of any other Man” (Locke, 1960 [1689]: 287). Mill too argued that “the burden of proof is supposed to be with those who are against liberty; who contend for any restriction or prohibition…. The a priori assumption is in favour of freedom…” (1963, vol. 21: 262). Recent liberal thinkers such as as Joel Feinberg (1984: 9), Stanley Benn (1988: 87) and John Rawls (2001: 44, 112) agree. This might be called the Fundamental Liberal Principle (Gaus, 1996: 162–166): freedom is normatively basic, and so the onus of justification is on those who would use coercion to limit freedom. It follows from this that political authority and law must be justified, as they limit the liberty of citizens. Consequently, a central question of liberal political theory is whether political authority can be justified, and if so, how. For this reason, social contract theory, as developed by Thomas Hobbes

The very first paragraph.

I will stress this quote:

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This might be called the Fundamental Liberal Principle

It is the root, the fundamental liberal principle. I am not sure exactly why you are contesting it. Yes, liberalism has morphed and changed, and yes liberalism has different schools of thought. However, the very essence of liberalism is the freedom of the individual and everything stems from there.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 12:17:08 AM by Leadbelly »

team filler

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  • filler
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1851 on: July 31, 2019, 12:13:34 AM »
did mandi ever drop the bombshell post that would annihilate leadbelly for all time?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 04:06:19 AM by filler »
*****

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1852 on: July 31, 2019, 12:14:12 AM »
for $20 I'll DM it to you

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1853 on: July 31, 2019, 12:24:58 AM »
lol come on Shapiro is absolutely a far right ideologue.  Even that conservative BBC guy called him out on it. The term has broader use than you're pretending it does.

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Right-wing populism often involves appeals to the "common man" and opposition to immigration.[16][1] Far-right politics sometimes involves anti-immigration and anti-integration stances towards groups that are deemed inferior and undesirable.[17] Concerning the socio-cultural dimension of nationality, culture and migration, one far-right position is the view that certain ethnic, racial or religious groups should stay separate and it is based on the belief that the interests of one's own group should be prioritised.

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1854 on: July 31, 2019, 12:27:38 AM »
hungrynoob was a Peterson stan before he was radicalized? There is no better example of Wank Dadness being a gateway to Q Anon insanity.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 12:48:42 AM by agrajag »

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1855 on: July 31, 2019, 12:38:51 AM »
lol come on Shapiro is absolutely a far right ideologue.  Even that conservative BBC guy called him out on it. The term has broader use than you're pretending it does.

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Right-wing populism often involves appeals to the "common man" and opposition to immigration.[16][1] Far-right politics sometimes involves anti-immigration and anti-integration stances towards groups that are deemed inferior and undesirable.[17] Concerning the socio-cultural dimension of nationality, culture and migration, one far-right position is the view that certain ethnic, racial or religious groups should stay separate and it is based on the belief that the interests of one's own group should be prioritised.

Well, here's the thing: far-right is term used to describe a Nazi or fascist. I don't believe Ben Shapiro is either of those things. It is term that is often used to smear people. I'm sure there is someone on these forums that understands the term in this way.

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The term is often used to describe Nazism,[4] neo-Nazism, fascism, neo-fascism and other ideologies or organizations that feature ultranationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, racist, anti-communist, or reactionary views.[5] These can lead to oppression and violence against groups of people based on their supposed inferiority, or their perceived threat to the native ethnic group,[6][7] nation, state[8], dominant culture or ultraconservative traditional social institutions.[9]p.



agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1856 on: July 31, 2019, 12:46:56 AM »
you just completely ignored my entire post

Mandark

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Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1857 on: July 31, 2019, 01:02:52 AM »
If only open neo-Nazis and white supremacists can be called far right, then everyone who doesn't cross that line gets to be labelled as a moderate or mainstream conservative, implying a level of broad acceptance or popularity, regardless of whether that's the case.

So I see how it's advantageous for fringe right-wing outlets (like WorldNetDaily, where Shapiro got his start as a baby polemicist) but not how it's helpful to anyone tryna put together a semi-objective taxonomy of the political scene.

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1858 on: July 31, 2019, 01:04:16 AM »
you just completely ignored my entire post

Your post isn't very long. It is just you claiming Ben Shapiro is far-right and a quote. Yet eve your quote suggests the same thing I am suggesting, if you read it closely.

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Right-wing populism often involves appeals to the "common man" and opposition to immigration.[16][1] Far-right politics sometimes involves anti-immigration and anti-integration stances towards groups that are deemed inferior and undesirable.[17] Concerning the socio-cultural dimension of nationality, culture and migration, one far-right position is the view that certain ethnic, racial or religious groups should stay separate and it is based on the belief that the interests of one's own group should be prioritised.

1. it speaks of right wing populism which doesn't quite mean the same thing, but can encompass far-right politics. You don't need to be far-right to be a populist, but someone on the far right can be a populist.
2. The part concerning far-right politics actually states it involves a form of supremacism or racism, it just doesn't state definitive labels like Nazi which would obviously encompass those beliefs.

It has nothing to do with Ben Shapiro per se, it is the problem with expanding the definition of far-right -- which seems to be what is happening -- to include more and more viewpoints. Which to my mind is a potentially dangerous thing to do. For a variety of reasons. It is convenient to some for short-term political gain.

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo
« Reply #1859 on: July 31, 2019, 01:08:24 AM »
that was from the wiki article on far right, meaning the term is sometimes used to describe right wing populists and reactionaries, which Shapiro most certainly is.

Also, language is fluid. Getting flustered over changing word use is like spitting against the wind.