Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo

[Mandark]

"Far right" was used to describe the Tea Party movement and its favored candidates all the time, because it distinguished them from mainstream Republicans (a distinction that those candidates were actively trying to emphasize).

[Leadbelly]

I will just reiterate my original point. There is a connotation with the term because of its association with Nazism and fascism. When people hear the term the image in their mind is of a Nazi. People then use that as way to ignore and simply stop addressing groups. And that ultimately is potentially dangerous because 1. it gives the real far-right cover. They can hide behind groups that perhaps shouldn't really be given the term. 2. it means certain potential issues are never addressed because of it supposed association with the 'far-right'.

I mean how many times do you read, 'that's an alt-right talking point' on RE for instance? Basically what that means is, I am going to dismiss you outright and ignore the point entirely because of its association with the alt-right. It is not useful in the long run.

Another example: one of the reasons the police simply ignored the rape of thousands of girls in the UK by Muslim grooming gangs was because the 'far-right' (genuinely far-right BNP) were using it for political advantage. And they feared giving them ground. Ultimately it is unhelpful to then exapnd the definition to encompass other groups. Or another way of putting it, using a term that they know has a particular connotation to label groups with controversial opinions.

[Leadbelly]

It too late. Maybe tomorrow.

[Leadbelly]

I will also mention that many of the answers to those questions have caveats to them. I can't simply give an agree or disagree answer. And in a way I kind of find it absurd to do so. lol

[Leadbelly]

UK

[Mandark]

Mandark has been doing this for a full decade that I know of and is still going strong with it. I'm surprised you never get tired mah dude.

More like 15 years at this point, but you can see my posting style decay from Nola-style earnest and detailed careposting to jaded snark. Like watching Louis Wain gradually lose his mind through his cat paintings.

[OnlyRegret]

Isn't it like 7:00 AM there
Did you just stay up all night to talk or shift work?

[Momo]

I see you guys are trying to make Leadbelly the new enemy

[Momo]

why did only filler like the video i posted of dumb provocateurs getting egged by a hobbit?

[team filler]

I'm the only one that matters, bb

[Momo]

I'm the only one that matters, bb

[Momo]

ok leadbelly... I have made a checklist of statements pertaining to issues both modern and historical and I'd like you to list either "agree" or "disagree" next to each one, with an optional ONE sentence of clarification (please use very sparingly). Within each section, I've tried to keep the point of view consistent. Here they are:

[public spending]
- If you earn more, you should pay more in taxes.
- The rich are not taxed highly enough in my country.
- It's shameful that people are allowed to make money simply by virtue of having wealth (stocks, rent, loans).
- Universal healthcare is a good idea.
- We should never privatize education.
- Higher education should be free, just like primary and secondary education are.

[identity issues]
- Racism is alive and well in my country.
- Systemic racism contributes to the continued oppression of racial minorities.
- Undocumented immigrants who have been living in my country should have some kind of legal status.
- Gender is a social construct and people should be free to identify as male or female.
- Human sexual preference is mostly biologically determined.
- Gay marriage should be legal.
- You should not be able to discriminate against someone on the basis of their sexual preference.
- Ditto, but for sexual identity.
- Ditto, but for race or gender.

[women's rights]
- Women have just as much of a right as men to be in the workplace.
- Contraception and abortion procedures should be legal (up to the third trimester).
- Abortion should be legal even in the third trimester.
- The cost of childcare is a major barrier for women to enter the workforce. We need public daycare or daycare vouchers.
- #MeToo is an important cultural movement.

[islam]
- People from majority muslim countries often have certain values which are fundamentally incompatible with western values.
- The refugee crisis in Europe is doing long-term damage to European society.
- Liberals are too quick to stand up for refugees from war-torn countries.
- We do not have a responsibility for fixing these countries or taking their needy.
- Christopher Hitchens was a brilliant debater.

[economy]
- Unions are, for the most part, a good idea.
- Laws that forbid workplaces from forcing employees to join unions are anti-union and should be opposed. [this used to say "Right to Work", which means something different in the UK, sorry]
- The government should provide a federal job guarantee because there is so much unemployment and so much infrastructure and community work that needs to be done.
- BREXIT is not a good idea.
- Free trade is generally good.
- CEOs make way too much money for what they actually do (nothing).

[climate]
- Climate change is real and anthropogenic.
- We should fund green technology.
- We should mobilize the nation to reduce our carbon output by a certain amount by a certain date.
- We should help depopulate Bangladesh into surrounding areas because it's going to be underwater and it's our fault.

[war and peace]
- My country should not sign a no-first-use promise for the use of nuclear weapons (my country should never use nuclear weapons first).
- My country's military protects my freedom.
- Saddam Hussein had to be deposed.
- If my country leaves Afghanistan, the Taliban will come back and my country will be at risk again.
- China is a threat to global peace.
- The US military should stay in South Korea.
- The US should overthrow the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.
- My country should maintain its current level of defense spending.

[general liberal issues]
- My country puts far too many people in jail.
- Flagburning is a right.
- The death penalty is wrong and should be abolished.
- Irrespective of Israel's right to defend itself from terrorism, Palestine is illegally occupied.
- The sanctions on Venezuela are needlessly compounding its economic crisis.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[scientific socialism]
- The industrial processes, especially supply chains with numerous levels of intermediate goods, are becoming increasingly more centrally planned by the firm owners, even and especially when these supply chains span multiple continents. This contradiction within the modern free market economy is empirical evidence that central planning by bureaucratic authorities in the age of computation is a perfectly efficient method of allocating resources.

- Work by economists like Hyman Minsky, Thomas Piketty, and Steve Keen, show rigorously that the existence of a privately owned finance sector produces a structurally unstable economy that is bound to produce serious economic crashes and exponentially greater inequality that is fundamentally inconsistent with democratic values. The nation's largest capital reserves must be publicly owned, from now until forever.

- When a large firm takes one component of its supply chain and moves it overseas from a developed nation to an underdeveloped one, with no change in the skillset of its labor or the efficiency of its capital, but the price of the intermediate good is still reduced by an order of magnitude, this is a deliberate act of exploitation which produces superprofits for the firm and/or superprofits for the consumer in the developed nation (and this surplus is then circulated through the rest of the economy, arbitrarily inflating its standard of living). Third world factory workers must unionize and reverse this "free trade" theft of wealth.

- The media is owned by major financial firms and operated by ruling elites and thus will always filter or distort news to serve its own interests. The public and labor must therefore own an alternative media.

- Post-USSR globalism has made income inequality even worse, both between nations, and within each nation.

- These and other contradictions will eventually lead to the end of capitalism itself.

[close]

I feel like if everyone did this the answers will be 99.9% the same

[Mandark]

momo, remember in the first thread where you'd try to give everyone else guidelines on how they should talk about peterson?

that was very weird

[OnlyRegret]

I feel like if everyone did this the answers will be 99.9% the same

If more than a handful of people did it (outside of the core crew), with the protection of completely anonymity there by completely decoupling their forum image from their answers, I'm not so sure.
There'd probably be some answers of extreme consensus, and some not so.

[Mandark]

the only acceptable answer to shosta's impromptu survey is "lol I'm not reading that"

[OnlyRegret]

the only acceptable answer to shosta's impromptu survey is "lol I'm not reading that"

I was hoping he copied it from elsewhere and didn't actually make it.
Cause otherwise I kind of feel bad, not enough to take it serious though

[Mandark]

jake should have a blog

[Momo]

momo, remember in the first thread where you'd try to give everyone else guidelines on how they should talk about peterson?

that was very weird

kinda like leadbelly, i feel like you guys only engage in mockery when it's better and more useful to just call him on his religious fairy tales, which is why i dont participate in this thread much. I rather read the threads on reddit calling him and others on their bullshit directly.

[Momo]

I feel like if everyone did this the answers will be 99.9% the same

If more than a handful of people did it (outside of the core crew), with the protection of completely anonymity there by completely decoupling their forum image from their answers, I'm not so sure.
There'd probably be some answers of extreme consensus, and some not so.

I dont think so, I feel we all generally have the same ideals but always need to find an enemy, however small the disagreement sample is. I'll answer it publicly if it gets a ball rolling to prove it lol

[Mandark]

kinda like leadbelly, i feel like you guys only engage in mockery when it's better and more useful to just call him on his religious fairy tales, which is why i dont participate in this thread much. I rather read the threads on reddit calling him and others on their bullshit directly.

first, this forum doesn't have an audience to be won over, getting some jokes off with the boys is totally acceptable praxis.

second, a lot of what you objected to in that thread was calling him on his bullshit directly, but you weren't comfortable with those aspects being called bullshit, because either you agreed with it, or the conflict lines reminded you too much of left/right politics to which you're averse.

[Momo]

kinda like leadbelly, i feel like you guys only engage in mockery when it's better and more useful to just call him on his religious fairy tales, which is why i dont participate in this thread much. I rather read the threads on reddit calling him and others on their bullshit directly.

first, this forum doesn't have an audience to be won over, getting some jokes off with the boys is totally acceptable praxis.


second, a lot of what you objected to in that thread was calling him on his bullshit directly, but you weren't comfortable with those aspects being called bullshit, because either you agreed with it, or the conflict lines reminded you too much of left/right politics to which you're averse.

receipts.
EDIT: Actually the last part is probably correct, -'or the conflict lines reminded you too much of left/right politics to which you're averse.'


EDIT2: 'first, this forum doesn't have an audience to be won over' also sorta the issue, we're all a bunch of people with similar ideas, so I dont get why when someone has an abnormal (for the forum norm) take on something why we dont just give them all the slack they need to explain what it is they are on about. Like we know no-one who posts here are distinguished mentally-challenged fellows right? So why treat their ideas as something to be mocked instead of seeing their point of view and either identifying the faulty information/assumptions on their side or potentially re-evaluating assumptions on your own side? No one is trying to red-pill anyone here, but this thread devolves to gotchas the second someone brings up a weird idea. (not talking about the banned people btw, they obviously do not count as coming from a good place)

[Momo]

I wrote that for Leadbelly only and do not have the patience to read it multiple times from other people

but i already ticked one question

[Mandark]

lmao "receipts"

4)I'm going to hope you can take my word I can do the same in reverse here, I don't want to cause I didn't intend on spending time debating this garbage, but if you insist I will (much later, probably in a couple of days lol)

that was in march

[Momo]

forum is messing up my formatting


EDIT: Think I fixed it, idk why it happens has for the last 10 years, demi pls.

[Mandark]

a lot of what you objected to in that thread was calling him on his bullshit directly, but you weren't comfortable with those aspects being called bullshit, because either you agreed with it, or the conflict lines reminded you too much of left/right politics to which you're averse.

receipts

I think a lot of you don't give Peterson credit when he makes sense and I think some of you are unwilling to call him out for the taking of wisdom from fairy tales bullshit, yes he derives at decent conclusion most of the time, but the source is fucking Hansel and Gretel or bible shit.

[Momo]

That post is saying 'attack his methodology not his conclusions' when the conclusions are obvious shit like 'work hard, clean your room' etc, specifically cause he derives it from 'in the bible there was a story once about a man making wine from a grape he put so much effort into it and cleaned up later'. What did you think I was saying? This is part of the issue I have, why do you guys assume it's adversarial when it's obviously not.

[Mandark]

That post is saying 'attack his methodology not his conclusions' when the conclusions are obvious shit like 'work hard, clean your room' etc

Click the link to see your own quote in context, then come back and tell me people were attacking his bland, self-help instructions.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Narrator: They were not, they were clowning him for his nonsense about Frozen.

[close]

[Momo]

The only defense I can think of I've ever offered JP and friends is how disingenuous the media are about them, which stems from the same place.

[Mandark]

The only defense I can think of I've ever offered JP and friends is how disingenuous the media are about them, which stems from the same place.

the same thing you've done for alex jones, and when I asked for receipts you said "wow I'm so wounded you wouldn't just take my word for it but give me a couple days" then did nothing

[Momo]

I tried, the post links to my profile. Tbh I dont remember much of this 

[Mandark]

The quote about peterson links to the original wank dad thread. The quote about alex jones is from a PM, cause you decided you wanted to shift the discussion out of public for whatever reason.

KEEP UP

[Momo]

The only defense I can think of I've ever offered JP and friends is how disingenuous the media are about them, which stems from the same place.

the same thing you've done for alex jones, and when I asked for receipts you said "wow I'm so wounded you wouldn't just take my word for it but give me a couple days" then did nothing

If I ever disengage it's because i feel it's pointless and adversarial, I've gone back and forth for pages with Boredfrom and others, where I figure out i'm wrong or both of us moved positions slightly but sometimes I dont feel it's worth my time.  I'm consistent when calling out media sources I read for dumb-assery btw. 

[Mandark]

You disengaged cause you said something that wasn't true and got called on it.

[Mandark]

I'm consistent when calling out media sources I read for dumb-assery btw.

I don't see why you need to be so closed-minded and dismissive of media sources you disagree with, instead of seeing their point of view and potentially re-examining assumptions on your own side?

[Momo]

The quote about peterson links to the original wank dad thread. The quote about alex jones is from a PM, cause you decided you wanted to shift the discussion out of public for whatever reason.

KEEP UP

I clicked through and i'm more confused now, I guess I have to read a page back or something.

[Mandark]

Fuck you Mandark, I'm mad all over again

IIRC I was going off your "people gotta chill, whipping your dick out in public is fine" stance from the #metoo thread.

[Momo]

I'm consistent when calling out media sources I read for dumb-assery btw.

I don't see why you need to be so closed-minded and dismissive of media sources you disagree with, instead of seeing their point of view and potentially re-examining assumptions on your own side?

I specifically do though? I read the report then criticize it, hence the 'I read' in the sentence. 

You're doing this thing again, being adversarial for no real reason.

[Mandark]

I specifically do though? I read the report then criticize it, hence the 'I read' in the sentence.

No you don't, you make blanket statements about "the media" and don't back them up when asked for clarification.

Remember when you said Vox was just like Gawker? ell oh ell

[jakefromstatefarm]

jake should have a blog

the blogosphere is dead and 90% of it moved to twitter and this is legit the shittiest thing ever for all the obvious reasons. An appropriate topic for a thread like this to cover is how worthless intellectual discourse is online in the first age where the internet’s everywhere and being used by everyone.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

All of my well actuallys are just regurgitating stuff from blogs that I follow + open source material (like that sep link above) + first impressions (that is to say NOT systematic deep readings) of primary sources. The upshot is pretty much always either ‘this is harder than you think; there are a range of tenable positions, so cool it with the incendiaries’ or ‘you’re being a numbnuts about how you’re interpreting this, you need to be both more critical and more charitable’.

[close]

[Mandark]

omg, did I defend some people in the #metoo thread?

Don't you dare dig up receipts. I don't want to see them.

OH IT'S TOO LATE

In the context of Terry Crews:

No, it should be considered as an inappropriate drunk groping during a Christmas party. That guy was so trashed everyone kicked him out of the party. That stuff just happens when you're blackout.

You should all click through, some good memories there.

[Momo]

I specifically do though? I read the report then criticize it, hence the 'I read' in the sentence.

No you don't, you make blanket statements about "the media" and don't back them up when asked for clarification.

Remember when you said Vox was just like Gawker? ell oh ell

They are, how many Carlos Maza articles do you want me to send you? They do not hold themselves to a high standard of journalism, I read Vox but i fact check. 

Again what are you doing here? Just trying to be adversarial until I back down as usual cause this isnt worth my time?

[Mandark]

Nah, you're just retconning past discussions from this board and I'm calling it out. Not personal, but don't ask for receipts if you don't want them.


edit: or as shosta showed, don't ask for no receipts either. Listen, you're getting receipts.

[Momo]

I'm still reading back btw, I still dont get your problem with that specific post. Would have helped if I was quoting something, I tend to anwer stuff pages back with a general thought so idk.

[Momo]

I think I understand now - it's a general thought, not specific to Frozen. first part was directed at most of the people in thread (ourselves) second part was for the etoilets, third part is my standing criticism of JP.

[Mandark]

Dude I get that you're conflict-averse and that's just a matter of personal disposition, but you gotta recognize that trying to impose guidelines in the middle of a roast is kinda priggish and not going to get good results.

[Momo]

Dude I get that you're conflict-averse and that's just a matter of personal disposition, but you gotta recognize that trying to impose guidelines in the middle of a roast is kinda priggish and not going to get good results.

The fact that you see discussing ideas as a roast is a problem to me. I'm not averse to conflict or debate, I'm averse to wasting time.

[Mandark]

Dude I get that you're conflict-averse and that's just a matter of personal disposition, but you gotta recognize that trying to impose guidelines in the middle of a roast is kinda priggish and not going to get good results.

The fact that you see discussing ideas as a roast is a problem to me.

Well if it's a discussion of ideas, then jumping in to unilaterally dictate which aspects people should criticize would be even worse.

[Mandark]

the blogosphere is dead and 90% of it moved to twitter and this is legit the shittiest thing ever for all the obvious reasons. An appropriate topic for a thread like this to cover is how worthless intellectual discourse is online in the first age where the internet’s everywhere and being used by everyone.

The character limit is understandably the focus of discussions of Twitter, but I think dumping everyone into the same de facto message board has as much to do with anything in both its popularity and toxicity.

[Momo]

Dude I get that you're conflict-averse and that's just a matter of personal disposition, but you gotta recognize that trying to impose guidelines in the middle of a roast is kinda priggish and not going to get good results.

The fact that you see discussing ideas as a roast is a problem to me.

Well if it's a discussion of ideas, then jumping in to unilaterally dictate which aspects people should criticize would be even worse.

You're acting like having standards when discussing ideas is somehow a flaw and claiming what's happening in this thread (in general) is criticism. This thread and that one is different. I pop into this thread every couple of months and it's ad hominem and mockery garbage, which is fine, that's what this thread is. Originally when I complained, etoilet seemed to want to discuss his ideas seriously and I was willing to give him the space to do so and to offer criticism where applicable, so my complaints there doesnt apply here.

[Momo]

I finally got to the part in the thread where Etiolate flips out and posts pictures of starving kids. What a legendary thread.

did you get to the part where he got unbanned and did it again?

[Mandark]

Originally when I complained, etoilet seemed to want to discuss his ideas seriously and I was willing to give him the space to do so and to offer criticism where applicable, so my complaints there doesnt apply here.

So now looking back you can see I had a more accurate read on the situation.

[Momo]

Originally when I complained, etoilet seemed to want to discuss his ideas seriously and I was willing to give him the space to do so and to offer criticism where applicable, so my complaints there doesnt apply here.

So now looking back you can see I had a more accurate read on the situation.

for sure.

I think leadbelly deserves more though, probably chose the wrong thread to try and engage in, but I dont think it goes better anywhere else, although I wish it did and we'd give each other the benefit that years of posting along side each other gives.

[Mandark]

Honestly, I don't think that knowing someone for a long time means you need to consider their ideas more seriously (especially if they have a track record of dopey ideas), or that you necessarily need to handle them with kid gloves.

Kosma's been around forever and is part of the social fabric here, but we were all able to be pretty direct in telling him he was acting a fool in that Roman Polanski thread. I think the results were both better and funnier because of it.

[Momo]

Eh, but he doesnt ever engage seriously lol
 

Honestly, I don't think that knowing someone for a long time means you need to consider their ideas more seriously (especially if they have a track record of dopey ideas), or that you necessarily need to handle them with kid gloves.

Depends, I don't think he's coming from a disingenuous place, which is why it's worth having him explain further without sending him to the defensive place from the start. I'm always curious when people who have similar beliefs to me come to different conclusions, I feel there's an opportunity to learn or teach. 

[Momo]

I can't wait till Mandark unveils his own problematic opinion so we can all dogpile him.

Like I dunno, if he was like a massive fan of Jane Austen or something.

I'd be in here trying to hold back the flood for Mandark too 

[Mandark]

I don't think he's coming from a disingenuous place

he is

[curly]

don't make the mistake of thinking I want to discuss bullshit like this seriously

my philosophy towards all leadbelly posts

[Oblivion]

Shos, I gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed with you. I totally expect someone like etiloiate to dismiss such an article, but not you.

Then you've misread me completely. I side with etiolate most of the time he posts.

oh my god

yeah, you were pretty awful, my dude. but i'm glad you (unwillingly) stopped hanging out with a bad crowd

[Oblivion]

if etoilet were still around, shosta would be a beta tester for thinkspot right about now

[Mandark]

shosta is proof that being relentlessly sassed by me builds character