Author Topic: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.  (Read 289421 times)

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VomKriege

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #600 on: August 03, 2019, 05:39:29 PM »
Her Punisher film was alright.
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toku

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #601 on: August 03, 2019, 06:46:54 PM »

VomKriege

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #602 on: August 04, 2019, 04:54:52 PM »
Yo settlin' peepz.
Yesterday I was settling my own business as a settler when that girl came and try to settle me! What the settle ? Stop gold settling you settler !
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Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #603 on: August 04, 2019, 05:25:01 PM »
Still no left libertarian option in America.

Please rebrand libertarianism so it’s no longer associated with crooks like McAfee.
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BisMarckie

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #604 on: August 04, 2019, 05:44:02 PM »
#Benji/stost 2020 :american

OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #605 on: August 04, 2019, 05:56:16 PM »
Feeding children food instead of arguing for their right to participate in the wage labor market doesn't sound very libertarian :camby

if we don't let children starve then parents starving children is incentivized

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #606 on: August 04, 2019, 06:10:57 PM »
Honest question: Why should any of us be socialists? I used to be socialist. I still agree with basically everything Bernie is saying. So maybe I still am. But social democracy might be as far as I want to go. I used to be libertarian socialist - an anarchist basically. The libertarian views stuck, the socialist views didn't. But given my exposure to socialists and communists why would I want them in charge? I've seen how socialists act when you go against their ideology. They demand such purity that when I study history it's very easy for me to come to understand why far leftists always purge their enemies with fire, blood, and bullets even if they were originally allies as seen by the social democrats and the bolsheviks.

Honestly, the SJWs demanding purity, et al and kicking me out of BLM for instance just because I thought,"maybe we shouldn't protest pride" has made me realize that if socialists did have power it would turn ugly indeed.

Convince me otherwise. I've never seen socialists sans social democrats espouse respect for human rights and things like free speech. On the contrary, often, they mock it. By mocking it, they show they don't value diversity in opinion and thought. That's where the purges start.

You guys keep talking socialism stuff on this board but I fear given my very direct experience with the far left that it'd turn into gulags at moments notice.
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OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #607 on: August 04, 2019, 06:16:01 PM »
Honest question: Why should any of us be socialists? I used to be socialist. I still agree with basically everything Bernie is saying. So maybe I still am. But social democracy might be as far as I want to go. I used to be libertarian socialist - an anarchist basically. The libertarian views stuck, the socialist views didn't. But given my exposure to socialists and communists why would I want them in charge? I've seen how socialists act when you go against their ideology. They demand such purity that when I study history it's very easy for me to come to understand why far leftists always purge their enemies with fire, blood, and bullets even if they were originally allies as seen by the social democrats and the bolsheviks.

Honestly, the SJWs demanding purity, et al and kicking me out of BLM for instance just because I thought,"maybe we shouldn't protest pride" has made me realize that if socialists did have power it would turn ugly indeed.

Convince me otherwise. I've never seen socialists sans social democrats espouse respect for human rights and things like free speech. On the contrary, often, they mock it. By mocking it, they show they don't value diversity in opinion and thought. That's where the purges start.

You guys keep talking socialism stuff on this board but I fear given my very direct experience with the far left that it'd turn into gulags at moments notice.

It's bizarre when cons were calling antifa/commies nazis. It is like everyone forgot the USSR existed and you don't need to be a nazi to be totalitarian or persecute opposition

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #608 on: August 04, 2019, 06:21:22 PM »
Antifa whackos are nuts. I lost a friend to antifa. I was apparently "hateful" and "turning the other cheek" by thinking "maybe it's not a good idea to go punching random people as it gives sympathy to their cause." We both agree the Richard Spencer's are poison but have different methods. But somehow I'm "hateful" for not willing random violence on people.

That's when I started to turn around on socialism: their tendency to talk about violence outright rather than as a last resort.

People can yap leftist crap all they want but they've got a good lot of explaining to most people why we should support much less trust them. And of course, they'll take that as an attack. Because they're authoritarians.
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OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #609 on: August 04, 2019, 06:26:12 PM »
Antifa whackos are nuts. I lost a friend to antifa. I was apparently "hateful" and "turning the other cheek" by thinking "maybe it's not a good idea to go punching random people as it gives sympathy to their cause." We both agree the Richard Spencer's are poison but have different methods. But somehow I'm "hateful" for not willing random violence on people.

That's when I started to turn around on socialism: their tendency to talk about violence outright rather than as a last resort.

My issue with it is the definition of nazi is entirely arbitrary now and is synonymous with person you don't agree with. Resulting in a mob that gives itself carte blanche to assault people they don't like as anyone opposed to them is clearly the bad guy. It is self righteous and a complex that they are always the ones in the right tuned to a belligerent degree.

Starts with something people agree with (spencer) and feedback loops to include varying people and propagates due to the catharsis the mob feels (beating randos).

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #610 on: August 04, 2019, 06:32:24 PM »
Antifa whackos are nuts. I lost a friend to antifa. I was apparently "hateful" and "turning the other cheek" by thinking "maybe it's not a good idea to go punching random people as it gives sympathy to their cause." We both agree the Richard Spencer's are poison but have different methods. But somehow I'm "hateful" for not willing random violence on people.

That's when I started to turn around on socialism: their tendency to talk about violence outright rather than as a last resort.

My issue with it is the definition of nazi is entirely arbitrary now and is synonymous with person you don't agree with. Resulting in a mob that gives itself carte blanche to assault people they don't like as anyone opposed to them is clearly the bad guy. It is self righteous and a complex that they are always the ones in the right tuned to a belligerent degree.

Starts with something people agree with (spencer) and feedback loops to include varying people and propagates due to the catharsis the mob feels (beating randos).

That's the worst of leftism: the mob mentality. There's merit in collectivism but when it gets to the point where there's emphasis on "we all need to think the same way", that's when the red flags start showing up. Don't get me wrong. All groups are like this. It's only human to do this and find an other and form an "us". But leftists, more than any ideology I've seen bar fascism and white supremacy, has a tendency to embrace this more than any ideology and I've personally witnessed it online and in real life.

Leftists scare me.

You can shame and mock "bubububu gulags" but I've seen exactly where their collectivist tendencies head toward - piety - and there's no amount of good points made, from the excesses capitalism to its sustainability, that can regain that trust once it's broken.
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OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #611 on: August 04, 2019, 06:39:44 PM »
It's interesting how events shape people's stances differently.
You feel driven Libertarian, I feel pushed more Authoritarian, as I find security and order to be pressing concerns.


Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #612 on: August 04, 2019, 06:49:39 PM »
It's interesting how events shape people's stances differently.
You feel driven Libertarian, I feel pushed more Authoritarian, as I find security and order to be pressing concerns.

The problem with authoritarianism is that states change. Rulers change. You can like authority be doled out on one group you dislike but what happens if the seasons change or the ruler changes and it's you on the firing end? This is precisely why when Trump won the presidency my trust in the state as an institution literally died overnight. Don't get me wrong, it's a valuable institution and unfortunately a necessary evil. But in America we have the potentiality of changing the state and the way it functions every few years. You can go from Obama to Trump and have most of Obama's legacy wiped out over just a few months. Do I trust in Trump's government to protect me? I bought a gun just a few months later after the revelation. That election was life changing and there is no going back.

Basically...

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Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #613 on: August 04, 2019, 06:55:15 PM »
See? None of that was said much less hinted at but you get a passive aggressive post that presumes free speech is perfect (this was never said) and other assumptions because you don't fully agree with their ideology. Like I said, piety.
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OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #614 on: August 04, 2019, 06:59:33 PM »
It's interesting how events shape people's stances differently.
You feel driven Libertarian, I feel pushed more Authoritarian, as I find security and order to be pressing concerns.

The problem with authoritarianism is that states change. Rulers change. You can like authority be doled out on one group you dislike but what happens if the seasons change or the ruler changes and it's you on the firing end? This is precisely why when Trump won the presidency my trust in the state as an institution literally died overnight. Don't get me wrong, it's a valuable institution and unfortunately a necessary evil. But in America we have the potentiality of changing the state and the way it functions every few years. You can go from Obama to Trump and have most of Obama's legacy wiped out over just a few months. Do I trust in Trump's government to protect me? I bought a gun just a few months later after the revelation. That election was life changing and there is no going back.

Basically...

(Image removed from quote.)

geez, I was literally thinking about LotGH when typing that, I should really watch that
the quote about "masses truly wanting an autocrat" came to mind

but yeah, the balancing act always comes down to the imagined just dictator, the noble noble, the sinless king, etc
power corrupts though

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #615 on: August 04, 2019, 07:16:48 PM »
I very much agree with Yang.

Democracy is the superior system.

Yeah, monarchy is faster because there's less cooks in the kitchen. But what happens when the just, good ruler has a child? What if their child is a despot? Although flawed, democracy just sounds a better system to me.

I also support Yang's making a new nation when the democratic state falls to its own excesses.

You should definitely watch LOGH. You'll see where you land by maybe episode 50.





So you're pro-Reinhard huh? Or just respect authority in general?
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OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #616 on: August 04, 2019, 07:25:42 PM »
A mixture of valuing order and a strong leader.
But a disdain for corrupt/oppressive leaders. Creates a contradictory stance of sorts since by nature oppressive and strong would likely come together with corrupt.

OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #617 on: August 04, 2019, 07:27:04 PM »
The 8values political test from the other thread tends to put me between left wing populism and autocracy

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #618 on: August 04, 2019, 07:28:47 PM »
Ah, I'm on the left libertarian scale.
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toku

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #619 on: August 04, 2019, 07:33:34 PM »
Just become an anarchist coward

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #620 on: August 04, 2019, 07:37:44 PM »
A mixture of valuing order and a strong leader.
But a disdain for corrupt/oppressive leaders. Creates a contradictory stance of sorts since by nature oppressive and strong would likely come together with corrupt.

So what happens when one ruler is strong but just, and the next one is corrupt? What do you do then? And how do you stave off assassinations to usurp power which are so prominent in governments like that?

Do you support Trump and how did you come about preferring authority systems?
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OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #621 on: August 04, 2019, 08:20:25 PM »
A mixture of valuing order and a strong leader.
But a disdain for corrupt/oppressive leaders. Creates a contradictory stance of sorts since by nature oppressive and strong would likely come together with corrupt.

So what happens when one ruler is strong but just, and the next one is corrupt? What do you do then? And how do you stave off assassinations to usurp power which are so prominent in governments like that?
There in lies the contradictions. There's no reason for those problems to not be prolific.

Do you support Trump and how did you come about preferring authority systems?
He's had a few good points along the way (shit sucks in the states), but continues along by being an idol of blunders and the entire idea of rich people being immune to consequences. made manifest

Tripon

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #622 on: August 04, 2019, 09:26:00 PM »
Honest question: Why should any of us be socialists?
There once was a world famous scientist that used his audience to advocate for socialism, but this cost him a lot both personally and publicly. After his death we taught his name to every child but never mentioned he was a socialist. That scientist's name?

I legit thought this was a libcom link.

Trent Dole

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curly

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #624 on: August 05, 2019, 12:26:50 AM »
engaging cindi on a weekend with multiple mass shootings :ufup

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #625 on: August 05, 2019, 01:48:19 AM »
I think the framing here misses the point.

A socialist society can be achieved with or without a formal, de jure "state" as long as someone is able to confiscate Cindi's guns.

BIONIC

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #626 on: August 05, 2019, 04:05:17 AM »
You know what kills me the most... Cindi, you waltz in here, asking, "Why would anyone want to be a socialist? They all end up being crazy SJW purists." First of all, one obviously doesn't imply the other and you know that, and second, you're asking us to defend that, which implies WE'RE like that (and telling Esch that out right just because he served you some piping hot sarcasm). Bitch, I stood up for your ass and got your account approved on Resetera.com, and then I personally stood up for you in threads there, and I STILL would have done that even if I knew you'd slap me in the face with some lazy Texas rhetoric two years later. When you want to ask me an honest question that treats me as an individual and not a punching bag for your bolshevik boogeymen, I'd be glad to tell you what I think and why I think it.

Get cucked by Cindi brehs  :umad
Margs

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #627 on: August 05, 2019, 01:28:41 PM »
See? None of that was said much less hinted at but you get a passive aggressive post that presumes free speech is perfect (this was never said) and other assumptions because you don't fully agree with their ideology. Like I said, piety.

I legitimately don't give a shit about you being in line with my ideology, i just find your reduction of leftists, historical left movements and generalizations about mentality to be laughable and not worth engaging with in good faith.

I did come in here in good faith.

I even had a nice discussion  with someone who is completely opposite of my political ideology. Unlike people like Shostakovich and Curly, we’ve known each other for years. So you thinking I can’t talk in good faith about while acknowledging I agree with some form of socialism is disappointing.

But ok.
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Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #628 on: August 05, 2019, 01:31:03 PM »
A mixture of valuing order and a strong leader.
But a disdain for corrupt/oppressive leaders. Creates a contradictory stance of sorts since by nature oppressive and strong would likely come together with corrupt.

So what happens when one ruler is strong but just, and the next one is corrupt? What do you do then? And how do you stave off assassinations to usurp power which are so prominent in governments like that?
There in lies the contradictions. There's no reason for those problems to not be prolific.

Do you support Trump and how did you come about preferring authority systems?
He's had a few good points along the way (shit sucks in the states), but continues along by being an idol of blunders and the entire idea of rich people being immune to consequences. made manifest

So you’d be fine with Trump so long as he wasn’t a blunder bus, faced the consequences of his actions, and wasn’t a spoiled rich brat?
 
What are your thoughts on Brazil’s new PM?
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Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #629 on: August 05, 2019, 01:36:38 PM »
You know what kills me the most... Cindi, you waltz in here, asking, "Why would anyone want to be a socialist? They all end up being crazy SJW purists." First of all, one obviously doesn't imply the other and you know that, and second, you're asking us to defend that, which implies WE'RE like that (and telling Esch that out right just because he served you some piping hot sarcasm). Bitch, I stood up for your ass and got your account approved on Resetera.com, and then I personally stood up for you in threads there, and I STILL would have done that even if I knew you'd slap me in the face with some lazy Texas rhetoric two years later. When you want to ask me an honest question that treats me as an individual and not a punching bag for your bolshevik boogeymen, I'd be glad to tell you what I think and why I think it.

:fbm

....

Sorry.

I definitely, uh, framed that badly. *scratches head*

To be honest I was a little confused about being accused of being a purity/piety(?) tester by a person who uses the word authoritarian as a shibboleth for whats Good and Bad... Who once got @ me for being too critical of drone bombings.

 :doge

I’m not sure this is me. Drone bombings and Obama’s foreign policy is why I didn’t vote for him in 2012. That year I voted green. I’m very much against the American war machine and especially drones. It disgusted me that democrats would say they were a good thing because that meant less American soldier deaths while they were targeting “terrorists” which killed random people, including children. Suddenly overnight the Democratic Party were fine with the advance of war as imperialism so long as it was their side doing it. I’ve discussed that at length here and how much it shaped my political views of both parties.

I’m pretty confident that wasn’t me. If it was I’m positive you misconstrued my meaning. Because I got into this with Mandark many times especially during 2012 and my view on war, imperialism, staying out of foreign nations has been a  major part of my political identity. I’m very non-interventionist. It’s partly why I’m  a big supporter of Tulsi Gabbard.

Speaking of Tulsi, I think that’s what you’re referring to. I expressed support for Tulsi and you mentioned her wanting drones against the Taliban in years old tweets. I don’t think I @‘d you about it though and it was an enlightening set of tweets that made me reconsider my support for Gabbard because I fear she might be a hidden imperialist hiding behind a Trumpian “America First” mask.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 02:15:06 PM by Cindi Mayweather »
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Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #630 on: August 05, 2019, 02:31:43 PM »
RE: authoritarianism. For me, authoritarianism is about flexing power to force a populace to do things while constraining their individual freedom. Who use unfair means to dole out justice to spread their authority. So Kamala’s history with imprisoning people, her views her on taking property by force, her threats of jail time, and being hard on crime are authoritarian to me. Maybe I’ve used the word too much, but it’s definitely a big concern. I guess it’s a mis-characterization for my part. In my experience, Democrats and Republicans are more authoritarian than leftists.

Yeah, I consider us friends as well. And I don't think youre uninterested. But you didn't even ask us to explain or have a discussion of the purpose of state arrangement or power. You just basically asked us to account for all the historical excesses of class warfare and then continued to pathologize leftists which... Most people aren't going to be receptive of?

:idont

The historical injustices aren't my main point although I could see why they were thought of such because it's a common argument against leftist philosophy. My point was that from what I have seen and witnessed a lot of people on the left (the real left, not the American "left") fall into a mindset where different values, opinions, and viewpoints aren't considered. They're often combative towards views they disagree with and don't value freedom of speech. That isn't to say freedom of speech is a perfect thing, or should be treated as a religious doctrine, but the ability to express oneself is a major boon to freeing people from bourgeoisie rule.

Yet it's not valued. In real life examples, I have been kicked out of leftist organizations like BLM for going against the group's common thought. I found that many of them have a tendency to go into mob mentality and given the historical injustices it's hard to not think about them. But they're not the main point. The main point is that inability in many leftist circles to express yourself if it goes against the "common sense" of the group. Given that many socialists and communists believe that the current paradigm should be replaced this forces you to ask questions. If this is how they act now, how would they act with power? So even if I agree with socialists on many issues, it's hard for me to trust them. I wrote a post about it and went about it the wrong way, but I still think the concern is there.

How do you think the state should function? What are your opinions of the state and how should power be distributed?

So I guess it comes down to individual vs the collective in regards to our philosophies coming at a head. For me, I think both are needed but that the individual needs freedom to be their own person. My own personal philosophy is that personal liberty is one of the dearest things in the world, but the problem is that how can this interact with other people's liberty? It's important for someone to be able to think, and feel, and do what they think is right so long as it doesn't disable someone else's ability to do so. What do you personally think of that? What is your opinion of liberty?

And what do you mean "We simply have different views on liberation and what's important in the world"? What do you find important in the world and what are your thoughts on liberation? What do you perceive my thoughts on liberation are?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 02:36:16 PM by Cindi Mayweather »
IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #631 on: August 05, 2019, 02:34:57 PM »
My point was that from what I have seen and witnessed a lot of people on the left (the real left, not the American "left") fall into a mindset where different values, opinions, and viewpoints aren't considered. They're often combative towards views they disagree with

Cindi!

This is you!

Multiple times!

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #632 on: August 05, 2019, 02:36:53 PM »
My point was that from what I have seen and witnessed a lot of people on the left (the real left, not the American "left") fall into a mindset where different values, opinions, and viewpoints aren't considered. They're often combative towards views they disagree with

Cindi!

This is you!

Multiple times!

Yeah. You're right.

The difference is I don't have an entire group backing me.
IYKYK

Oblivion

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #633 on: August 05, 2019, 02:43:56 PM »
RE: authoritarianism. For me, authoritarianism is about flexing power to force a populace to do things while constraining their individual freedom. Who use unfair means to dole out justice to spread their authority. So Kamala’s history with imprisoning people, her views her on taking property by force, her threats of jail time, and being hard on crime are authoritarian to me. Maybe I’ve used the word too much, but it’s definitely a big concern. I guess it’s a mis-characterization for my part. In my experience, Democrats and Republicans are more authoritarian than leftists.

Whoa, hold on there. This seems like a bait and switch, Cind-chan. I don't think anyone would disagree with what you're saying here. But you weren't complaining about Kamala Harris putting parents in jail. You were complaining about shit like overbearing resetera mods, twitter shadowbanning rightwingres, and BLM activists being mean to you

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #634 on: August 05, 2019, 02:46:20 PM »
RE: authoritarianism. For me, authoritarianism is about flexing power to force a populace to do things while constraining their individual freedom. Who use unfair means to dole out justice to spread their authority. So Kamala’s history with imprisoning people, her views her on taking property by force, her threats of jail time, and being hard on crime are authoritarian to me. Maybe I’ve used the word too much, but it’s definitely a big concern. I guess it’s a mis-characterization for my part. In my experience, Democrats and Republicans are more authoritarian than leftists.

Whoa, hold on there. This seems like a bait and switch, Cind-chan. I don't think anyone would disagree with what you're saying here. But you weren't complaining about Kamala Harris putting parents in jail. You were complaining about shit like overbearing resetera mods, twitter shadowbanning rightwingres, and BLM activists being mean to you

I've talked about Kamala very frequently and even have her as a cop as my avatar.
IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #635 on: August 05, 2019, 02:47:51 PM »
this all started after kamala said something about using exec orders to take away cindi's guns

Oblivion

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #636 on: August 05, 2019, 02:47:57 PM »
RE: authoritarianism. For me, authoritarianism is about flexing power to force a populace to do things while constraining their individual freedom. Who use unfair means to dole out justice to spread their authority. So Kamala’s history with imprisoning people, her views her on taking property by force, her threats of jail time, and being hard on crime are authoritarian to me. Maybe I’ve used the word too much, but it’s definitely a big concern. I guess it’s a mis-characterization for my part. In my experience, Democrats and Republicans are more authoritarian than leftists.

Whoa, hold on there. This seems like a bait and switch, Cind-chan. I don't think anyone would disagree with what you're saying here. But you weren't complaining about Kamala Harris putting parents in jail. You were complaining about shit like overbearing resetera mods, twitter shadowbanning rightwingres, and BLM activists being mean to you

I've talked about Kamala very frequently and even have her as a cop as my avatar.

That...wasn't the point of my post.

Oblivion

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #637 on: August 05, 2019, 02:50:22 PM »
I'm talking about this post:

Honest question: Why should any of us be socialists? I used to be socialist. I still agree with basically everything Bernie is saying. So maybe I still am. But social democracy might be as far as I want to go. I used to be libertarian socialist - an anarchist basically. The libertarian views stuck, the socialist views didn't. But given my exposure to socialists and communists why would I want them in charge? I've seen how socialists act when you go against their ideology. They demand such purity that when I study history it's very easy for me to come to understand why far leftists always purge their enemies with fire, blood, and bullets even if they were originally allies as seen by the social democrats and the bolsheviks.

Honestly, the SJWs demanding purity, et al and kicking me out of BLM for instance just because I thought,"maybe we shouldn't protest pride" has made me realize that if socialists did have power it would turn ugly indeed.

Convince me otherwise. I've never seen socialists sans social democrats espouse respect for human rights and things like free speech. On the contrary, often, they mock it. By mocking it, they show they don't value diversity in opinion and thought. That's where the purges start.

You guys keep talking socialism stuff on this board but I fear given my very direct experience with the far left that it'd turn into gulags at moments notice.

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #638 on: August 05, 2019, 02:54:32 PM »
this all started after kamala said something about using exec orders to take away cindi's guns

No, it started very much before due to her prosecutor background, and history of prison use. The talk about using exec orders to take away guns is really just a confirmation of per-existing prejudices.

RE: authoritarianism. For me, authoritarianism is about flexing power to force a populace to do things while constraining their individual freedom. Who use unfair means to dole out justice to spread their authority. So Kamala’s history with imprisoning people, her views her on taking property by force, her threats of jail time, and being hard on crime are authoritarian to me. Maybe I’ve used the word too much, but it’s definitely a big concern. I guess it’s a mis-characterization for my part. In my experience, Democrats and Republicans are more authoritarian than leftists.

Whoa, hold on there. This seems like a bait and switch, Cind-chan. I don't think anyone would disagree with what you're saying here. But you weren't complaining about Kamala Harris putting parents in jail. You were complaining about shit like overbearing resetera mods, twitter shadowbanning rightwingres, and BLM activists being mean to you

I've talked about Kamala very frequently and even have her as a cop as my avatar.

That...wasn't the point of my post.

You're conflating two different things. I was commenting on Esch's authoritarian remark. I don't think overbearing reset mods are an example of authoritarianism. Reset doesn't matter in the long run, and aren't even an example of the left as they're strong whores of consumption. I do think some activist groups are an example of authoritarian behavior, though.
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #639 on: August 05, 2019, 02:57:07 PM »
I'm talking about this post:

Honest question: Why should any of us be socialists? I used to be socialist. I still agree with basically everything Bernie is saying. So maybe I still am. But social democracy might be as far as I want to go. I used to be libertarian socialist - an anarchist basically. The libertarian views stuck, the socialist views didn't. But given my exposure to socialists and communists why would I want them in charge? I've seen how socialists act when you go against their ideology. They demand such purity that when I study history it's very easy for me to come to understand why far leftists always purge their enemies with fire, blood, and bullets even if they were originally allies as seen by the social democrats and the bolsheviks.

Honestly, the SJWs demanding purity, et al and kicking me out of BLM for instance just because I thought,"maybe we shouldn't protest pride" has made me realize that if socialists did have power it would turn ugly indeed.

Convince me otherwise. I've never seen socialists sans social democrats espouse respect for human rights and things like free speech. On the contrary, often, they mock it. By mocking it, they show they don't value diversity in opinion and thought. That's where the purges start.

You guys keep talking socialism stuff on this board but I fear given my very direct experience with the far left that it'd turn into gulags at moments notice.

Kamala isn't a socialist. The post is about socialism and my experiences with socialists.
IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #640 on: August 05, 2019, 02:58:42 PM »
Cindi, I think Wrath nailed it a couple years ago. Your 2015/2016 self was a really angry, unforgiving puritan on political matters and you wound up seeking and surrounding yourself with people who had similar mindsets and dispositions. Of course they were going to act like dicks when you shifted on some issues.

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #641 on: August 05, 2019, 03:06:54 PM »
In my experience, Democrats and Republicans are more authoritarian than leftists.
Given that many socialists and communists believe that the current paradigm should be replaced this forces you to ask questions. If this is how they act now, how would they act with power? So even if I agree with socialists on many issues, it's hard for me to trust them.
how do you trust the Democrats and Republicans in power then

Good question. I really don't and think both parties have far lived out their use. I think both parties need to die. But it's what we have. Ideally, I'd like at least 3-5 party options so more views can be represented.

I don't really trust any form of government or state as I said earlier. Any trust in a state is small. Trust went away the night Donald Trump was elected President. You can trust one government, but then you might get another one entirely four years later. Government isn't worth trusting, but I do find it a useful thing to have. The #dualities. So I agree with the founding fathers in that at least. They made it hard as fuck for the government to wield power over the people because they had a rightful fear of the state and its power and yet still knew the importance of engaging with it. So I find the Democrats and Republicans to be a bastardization of American values, but it's what we have.

For the record, I agree with your Luxemburg quote entirely down to the last letter.

Although I agree with many socialists, how do I know if they're not more of the same - or worse? After all, trust in government has been dissolved. It's easier to trust what you know more than what you don't know.
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #642 on: August 05, 2019, 03:08:27 PM »
Cindi, I think Wrath nailed it a couple years ago. Your 2015/2016 self was a really angry, unforgiving puritan on political matters and you wound up seeking and surrounding yourself with people who had similar mindsets and dispositions. Of course they were going to act like dicks when you shifted on some issues.

So the issue is less socialism and the people I engaged with? :fbm

That's a depressing thought.
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #643 on: August 05, 2019, 03:21:18 PM »
I don't really trust any form of government or state as I said earlier. Any trust in a state is small.
Although I agree with many socialists, how do I know if they're not more of the same - or worse?
clearly there is a bigger problem if someone tells you they won't take away your freedom of speech and you refuse to believe them

Well, BLM and Black activism is how I got introduced to socialism to begin with. Black Panthers were Marxist and I was very much was proud of that fact. I would regularly brag that the Black Panthers started the first national breakfast program for children. So I tied socialism to my activism. And yet my opinions did not matter and I felt forced to think one way within activist circles. I saw the dangers of group dynamics and maybe, faulty applied that as a character of all socialism. It was also more than BLM but also my experiences within Antifa. I was surrounded by "do it our way" activists and they scared me. So I possibly, in my puritanical mindset, attributed their authoritarian streak with socialism.

....

I need to go sit down. 

IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #644 on: August 05, 2019, 03:23:03 PM »
So the issue is less socialism and the people I engaged with?

That's a depressing thought.

I remember when you broke from the socialists and started becoming more and more conservative, you kept talking about how the left was dogmatic in a way the right isn't. To someone like me who's been wasting time on this shit since the 90's, that seems nuts, but I think because it was the first time you had seriously considered some of those views, they represented openness and heterogeneity to you. Of course about a year later you wind up concluding that the right-wingers were pretty hypocritical and dogmatic themselves.

That's all just my take from a distant, digital vantage point of course.

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #645 on: August 05, 2019, 03:25:12 PM »
Is there a therapist that helps out with political views?
IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #646 on: August 05, 2019, 03:25:37 PM »
Is there a therapist that helps out with political views?

Jordan Peterson

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #647 on: August 05, 2019, 03:26:03 PM »
IYKYK

team filler

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #648 on: August 05, 2019, 03:26:17 PM »
 :pimp
*****

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #649 on: August 05, 2019, 03:32:48 PM »
I'm depressed now.
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #650 on: August 05, 2019, 03:40:50 PM »
I'd like to talk about this with a therapist but I couldn't trust them to be impartial about it and throw their own politics into the mix.
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #651 on: August 05, 2019, 03:47:33 PM »
I'd like to talk about this with a therapist but I couldn't trust them
there is that thing again

 :mjcry

Stop :(
IYKYK

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #652 on: August 05, 2019, 03:49:17 PM »
A mixture of valuing order and a strong leader.
But a disdain for corrupt/oppressive leaders. Creates a contradictory stance of sorts since by nature oppressive and strong would likely come together with corrupt.

So what happens when one ruler is strong but just, and the next one is corrupt? What do you do then? And how do you stave off assassinations to usurp power which are so prominent in governments like that?
There in lies the contradictions. There's no reason for those problems to not be prolific.

Do you support Trump and how did you come about preferring authority systems?
He's had a few good points along the way (shit sucks in the states), but continues along by being an idol of blunders and the entire idea of rich people being immune to consequences. made manifest

So you’d be fine with Trump so long as he wasn’t a blunder bus, faced the consequences of his actions, and wasn’t a spoiled rich brat?
 
What are your thoughts on Brazil’s new PM?

Not sure if it merits consideration. Remove all the negatives of Trump and you've got a completely new person.

I honestly can't say I have much of an opinion given my view of him is characterized by skimming other people's writing and memes

team filler

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #653 on: August 05, 2019, 03:54:08 PM »
 :yuck
*****

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #654 on: August 05, 2019, 04:03:00 PM »
and let them decide your beliefs for you.


No!
IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #655 on: August 05, 2019, 04:07:33 PM »
first thing we're going to do is a trust exercise where you give me all your guns

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #656 on: August 05, 2019, 04:08:56 PM »
first thing we're going to do is a trust exercise where you give me all your guns

What is it with you and the guns? :maf
IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #657 on: August 05, 2019, 04:10:58 PM »
listen this isn't going to work if you don't commit to the process and let yourself be vulnerable

Himu

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #658 on: August 05, 2019, 04:12:01 PM »
:lol
IYKYK

team filler

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #659 on: August 05, 2019, 04:16:00 PM »
typical white male thinking trans person is mentally unstable  ::) meanwhile, white males continue shooting up the country  :kermit
*****