USA Politics Thread |OT| Son of a bitch!

[Skullfuckers Anonymous]

https://mobile.twitter.com/HaitianDvorce/status/1348475324741394432

[Uncle]

it's a little alarming that the mere idea of being pro free speech is now going to be considered an alt right dogwhistle

like imagine you start a new social media service of some kind, like a reddit alternative, you don't have a specific political target audience in mind you're just kind of frustrated with the way reddit deals with things and you think you can do better

you have decent moderation policies in place and don't allow conspiracy theories or planning for violence, but in general you want to allow people to be themselves and speak their mind, ideally without being hateful

you can't list among your features that you aim to be a "free speech" platform anymore, because "everybody knows" what you're actually doing and who you're actually catering towards, even if you're not

[Cauliflower Of Love]

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1348458140258488322

too bad the qanon shaman didn't get ahold of this bish

[Boredfrom]

it's a little alarming that the mere idea of being pro free speech is now going to be considered an alt right dogwhistle

like imagine you start a new social media service of some kind, like a reddit alternative, you don't have a specific political target audience in mind you're just kind of frustrated with the way reddit deals with things and you think you can do better

you have decent moderation policies in place and don't allow conspiracy theories or planning for violence, but in general you want to allow people to be themselves and speak their mind, ideally without being hateful

you can't list among your features that you aim to be a "free speech" platform anymore, because "everybody knows" what you're actually doing and who you're actually catering towards, even if you're not

You should also blame Republicans for that one.

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/SarahHuckabee/status/1347990928984842245


 

[Cauliflower Of Love]

she had over 50k followers?

[BIONIC]

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1348352082529710080

[Boredfrom]

I like how the political class are complains about free speech and twitter followers. Only if the left were willing to call them out of their BS without the laziness  “HURR HURR PRIVATE COMPANY”.

[Tuckers Law]

Jesus why the fucking music

At first I was thinking the same, but then remembered that Arnold is a man who unashamedly embraces his corny side.

What a legend.

 

[Cryo]

https://mobile.twitter.com/BirdRespecter/status/1348557067351519234

[HaughtyFrank]

https://twitter.com/bradwhipple/status/1348043292504686597

[Uncle]

it's a little alarming that the mere idea of being pro free speech is now going to be considered an alt right dogwhistle

like imagine you start a new social media service of some kind, like a reddit alternative, you don't have a specific political target audience in mind you're just kind of frustrated with the way reddit deals with things and you think you can do better

you have decent moderation policies in place and don't allow conspiracy theories or planning for violence, but in general you want to allow people to be themselves and speak their mind, ideally without being hateful

you can't list among your features that you aim to be a "free speech" platform anymore, because "everybody knows" what you're actually doing and who you're actually catering towards, even if you're not

You should also blame Republicans for that one.

in general it always takes two to tango, the left is the side constantly focusing on whether what you've said means you're secretly X or Y, using the idea of dogwhistles and implications to come to absolutely definitely true conclusions about anything

but besides that it doesn't matter whose fault anything is

like I don't know what you're trying to say here, it's republicans' fault we lost free speech therefore I should be in favor of silencing all their speech and obliterating them?  it goes back to what was being discussed earlier, it's not about giving someone what they "deserve," it's about taking the best action, and this is a tenet that needs to be defended, especially when it's most under attack

there was a time when the left were the free speech advocates and it was an issue that needed to cut across party lines then, and it still should now

[Uncle]

Save all the free speech shit for when the government is cracking down on people because it doesn't apply to companies of any kind silencing voices or types of rhetoric. Being deplatformed by big tech companies isn't a free speech issue, nor is various companies saying they won't do business with Republicans who pushed the election fraud stories, or companies saying we won't work with you if you hire Trump press secretaries. They're suffering from the consequences of what their governmental free speech rights allowed them to put out into the world.

it kind of is

at some point you have to evaluate what it actually means to have speech

"b-but private companies making their own private decisions" only goes so far until you're saying that for ALL types of speech, often even including what can be said in the real world

the refrain is "if you don't like that you got banned then make your own company where you're allowed to say what you want," but now payment processors and web hosts are private companies making their own private decisions to prevent your company from even getting off the ground

it doesn't matter what your policies are, it matters what they say your policies ought to be, or you're not going to be able to establish and maintain that private company



and this isn't about lamenting that republicans are getting their shit kicked in for being assholes, this is about the precedent it sets moving forward, which is that all that exists now is all that should ever exist wrt "speech" online

you have reddit, you have twitter, and any new forums are implicit attempts to circumvent the things they don't let you say, painting a massive target on your back

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

I know americans get hung up on 'free speech' as a constitutional issue relating specifically to government oversight, rather than the underlying principle of free speech and powerful entities being able to silence individuals, so don't look at it as a free speech issue.

Look at it as a net neutrality issue.
Are you for net neutrality, for all the reasoning behind it, or are you against it and happy to allow corporations to decide for you what does and doesn't get bandwidth?

[Uncle]

That still isn't a free speech issue, which is specifically related to the government's ability to silence citizens.

then define the issue

the semantics of what you choose to call it matter less than what it is

[zomgee]

like imagine you start a new social media service of some kind...

you have decent moderation policies in place and don't allow conspiracy theories or planning for violence...

No you don't.

[nudemacusers]

https://mobile.twitter.com/BirdRespecter/status/1348557067351519234

wait you had to show you license to get 'verified'? and 'terk er jerbs' nutjobs still signed up for this? beginning to think these guys just like being owned. 

[mormapope]

I think some of y'all are addicted to gay dog porn or something with how hard this freedom of speech discussion is going.

[nudemacusers]

I think some of y'all are addicted to gay dog porn or something with how hard this freedom of speech discussion is going.

no laws against barking FIRE in a crowded cum dungeon



also some rando on my facebook posted this and told everyone to follow suit:



hang your phone's ass out to own the libs

[Pissy F Benny]

i wish i had insane american yahoo maga rubes as friends on facebook, maybe i'd actually open that shit for once

[wsippel]

Save all the free speech shit for when the government is cracking down on people because it doesn't apply to companies of any kind silencing voices or types of rhetoric. Being deplatformed by big tech companies isn't a free speech issue, nor is various companies saying they won't do business with Republicans who pushed the election fraud stories, or companies saying we won't work with you if you hire Trump press secretaries. They're suffering from the consequences of what their governmental free speech rights allowed them to put out into the world.

It's a bit more complicated than that. Sure, in theory, social media can allow or ban whatever they want, but they also claim to be "platforms" as a means to protect themselves from legal responsibility. If they ban people based on content that isn't clearly and obviously illegal, they stop being neutral, which means they can no longer claim to be a communication platform - they'll become a publication. So they'll have to take responsibility for any and all content on their platform. Which essentially means the end of social media as we know it. That might also apply to hosting companies like AWS or store fronts like the Play Store. Now whether that's a net positive or negative I don't know, nor does it really matter. At the end of the day, the reason postal services don't get blamed for mail bombs is that they don't know, and aren't supposed to know, what they deliver.

[Tasty]

CNN: Man seen chasing Black Capitol Police officer in video faces charges.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/10/politics/doug-jensen-capitol-hill-police-officer/index.html

[Joe Molotov]

I think some of y'all are addicted to gay dog porn or something with how hard this freedom of speech discussion is going.

no laws against barking FIRE in a crowded cum dungeon



also some rando on my facebook posted this and told everyone to follow suit:

(Image removed from quote.)

hang your phone's ass out to own the libs

This is just like when Nazi Germany updated everyone's cell phones in 1938. George Orwell warned us about this!.

[Pissy F Benny]

if you think this is tyranny, wait until america's first dictator takes over next week

[Cauliflower Of Love]

so parlor got got?

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/scottbix/status/1348610675870937088


 

[Uncle]

it's a little alarming that the mere idea of being pro free speech is now going to be considered an alt right dogwhistle

like imagine you start a new social media service of some kind, like a reddit alternative, you don't have a specific political target audience in mind you're just kind of frustrated with the way reddit deals with things and you think you can do better

you have decent moderation policies in place and don't allow conspiracy theories or planning for violence, but in general you want to allow people to be themselves and speak their mind, ideally without being hateful

you can't list among your features that you aim to be a "free speech" platform anymore, because "everybody knows" what you're actually doing and who you're actually catering towards, even if you're not

What are you alarmed about exactly?

that the mere idea of being pro free speech is now going to be considered an alt right dogwhistle

[Pissy F Benny]

https://mobile.twitter.com/BirdRespecter/status/1348557067351519234

This is just utter BS BTW.

Scroll down a bit and people link to what is actually going on.   Someone created a tool to archive Parler; meaning it's just web scraping the public content.

edit: It's possible the archiving found some accidentally public data.. but that seems unlikely, and the Reddit post is almost certainly just a bunch of BS.. the archive site is just a hobby thing for some programmers who list their names publicly, what's described in the reddit post would be highly illegal, so would be unlikely to be something people would be advertising with their real names

my faith in Bird Respecter has been irreparably damaged

[mormapope]

it's a little alarming that the mere idea of being pro free speech is now going to be considered an alt right dogwhistle

like imagine you start a new social media service of some kind, like a reddit alternative, you don't have a specific political target audience in mind you're just kind of frustrated with the way reddit deals with things and you think you can do better

you have decent moderation policies in place and don't allow conspiracy theories or planning for violence, but in general you want to allow people to be themselves and speak their mind, ideally without being hateful

you can't list among your features that you aim to be a "free speech" platform anymore, because "everybody knows" what you're actually doing and who you're actually catering towards, even if you're not

What are you alarmed about exactly?

that the mere idea of being pro free speech is now going to be considered an alt right dogwhistle

Of things to be concerned about, this ranks close to the bottom 

[Transhuman]

it's a little alarming that the mere idea of being pro free speech is now going to be considered an alt right dogwhistle

like imagine you start a new social media service of some kind, like a reddit alternative, you don't have a specific political target audience in mind you're just kind of frustrated with the way reddit deals with things and you think you can do better

you have decent moderation policies in place and don't allow conspiracy theories or planning for violence, but in general you want to allow people to be themselves and speak their mind, ideally without being hateful

you can't list among your features that you aim to be a "free speech" platform anymore, because "everybody knows" what you're actually doing and who you're actually catering towards, even if you're not

What are you alarmed about exactly?

that the mere idea of being pro free speech is now going to be considered an alt right dogwhistle

That's the way it's always been. If defending free speech were easy, it wouldn't need defending.

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/nycjim/status/1348615076534738945

https://twitter.com/nycjim/status/1348616372423712771


 

[CatsCatsCats]

User: Uncle sticking up for racist uncles

[Transhuman]

And yet it's certainly the left that gets the hardest crackdowns and push back on their usage of free speech throughout the history of this country. Conservatives talk a big game about free speech but never do shit to actually defend it and in fact abuse it and use it as a pretense to deny minorities, well, just about anything.

You shouldn't forget that the biggest shame of that history isn't that progressive people were denied the opportunity to speak, it's the fact that conservatives were denied the chance to listen.

[Transhuman]

How is a racist supposed to change their opinion if every single person they hear speaking about racism is a racist?  Or someone born into a religious family before the 20th century? Or born in China today? Free speech is much more valuable to the objectionable than to the objector.

[nudemacusers]

https://twitter.com/nycjim/status/1348615076534738945

https://twitter.com/nycjim/status/1348616372423712771


 

army chix in general are slightly crazy (especially Os) but psyops ppl definitely cannot be doing this shit and expect to do their job correctly. they're deep in TS/SCI material.

[Uncle]

And yet it's certainly the left that gets the hardest crackdowns and push back on their usage of free speech throughout the history of this country. Conservatives talk a big game about free speech but never do shit to actually defend it and in fact abuse it and use it as a pretense to deny minorities, well, just about anything.

right, that's why it needs defending, the left is always getting pushed back on for their use of it but suddenly we don't care about something that mattered for so long, just because it's expedient in the moment, or just because we get to give someone else what they "deserve"

as usual it's the short-sightedness that comes back to bite later when the same thing is eventually wielded against us from another angle

[Uncle]

User: Uncle sticking up for racist uncles

sure, it's always about divining someone's secret evil motivations than examining an issue on its face, for what it is

[Madrun Badrun]

You do not reason a racist out of being a racist.  No racist ever said, I have read your essay from thesis statement to the conclusion and you know, maybe I was wrong about black people.  What you do is shame them into silence, marginalize their view, and normalize whatever they are afraid of to the point where they can look back and go well I guess X group is fine.  Look at gay rights.  The bigots were not reasoned into acceptance.  They were silenced, and then, once LGB people were given the freedom to be out after 10-20 years of seeing gay people on TV, and in the streets, and being their coworkers and neighbors they can then give up their fears.  This has been how we have expunged bigoted views for all of recent history.  And before, people jump in, obviously this will not work for all bigots, no shit but that's not the point. 

[nudemacusers]

imagine being an mil officer making $100K+ a year, basically being unfireable for poor job performance, only to throw it away cuz you don't want to wear a mask. 

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

You do not reason a racist out of being a racist.  No racist ever said, I have read your essay from thesis statement to the conclusion and you know, maybe I was wrong about black people.

...but there are literally documented examples of exactly this happening?

[Uncle]

You do not reason a racist out of being a racist.  No racist ever said, I have read your essay from thesis statement to the conclusion and you know, maybe I was wrong about black people.  What you do is shame them into silence, marginalize their view, and normalize whatever they are afraid of to the point where they can look back and go well I guess X group is fine.  Look at gay rights.  The bigots were not reasoned into acceptance.  They were silenced, and then, once LGB people were given the freedom to be out after 10-20 years of seeing gay people on TV, and in the streets, and being their coworkers and neighbors they can then give up their fears.  This has been how we have expunged bigoted views for all of recent history.  And before, people jump in, obviously this will not work for all bigots, no shit but that's not the point.

it's pretty well known that an expanded worldview often leads to greater empathy, the kind that comes from traveling to other states or countries, getting to know people you might not have otherwise, or simply from life experience, going through some hard times and maybe receiving help from somewhere or someone you didn't expect that changes your outlook

so, no, people can and do change with life experience

like seriously have you never seen anyone commenting stuff like "I used to be a racist little shit before I wised up"  "man I used to be edgy for the sake of edgy until I learned to be better"  "I really lament the state of the rest of my family, glad I learned to grow up and wish they could too"

[Sman]

You do not reason a racist out of being a racist.  No racist ever said, I have read your essay from thesis statement to the conclusion and you know, maybe I was wrong about black people.  What you do is shame them into silence, marginalize their view, and normalize whatever they are afraid of to the point where they can look back and go well I guess X group is fine.  Look at gay rights.  The bigots were not reasoned into acceptance.  They were silenced, and then, once LGB people were given the freedom to be out after 10-20 years of seeing gay people on TV, and in the streets, and being their coworkers and neighbors they can then give up their fears.  This has been how we have expunged bigoted views for all of recent history.  And before, people jump in, obviously this will not work for all bigots, no shit but that's not the point.

Are you seriously implying that...

spoiler (click to show/hide)

...the plot of the movie American History X is far-fetched?

[close]

[Pissy F Benny]

https://twitter.com/nycjim/status/1348615076534738945

https://twitter.com/nycjim/status/1348616372423712771


 

new twitter account idea: @trumpshawtys

[Madrun Badrun]

You do not reason a racist out of being a racist.  No racist ever said, I have read your essay from thesis statement to the conclusion and you know, maybe I was wrong about black people.

...but there are literally documented examples of exactly this happening?

No deradicalization is not just people being reasoned too.  It is a much more social program.  And yes you can go about it with the carrot or the stick.  Also, yes people can get to the point where they are open to reasoned arguments about bigotry but that point they are not really bigots in the sense we are concerned with. 

You do not reason a racist out of being a racist.  No racist ever said, I have read your essay from thesis statement to the conclusion and you know, maybe I was wrong about black people.  What you do is shame them into silence, marginalize their view, and normalize whatever they are afraid of to the point where they can look back and go well I guess X group is fine.  Look at gay rights.  The bigots were not reasoned into acceptance.  They were silenced, and then, once LGB people were given the freedom to be out after 10-20 years of seeing gay people on TV, and in the streets, and being their coworkers and neighbors they can then give up their fears.  This has been how we have expunged bigoted views for all of recent history.  And before, people jump in, obviously this will not work for all bigots, no shit but that's not the point.

it's pretty well known that an expanded worldview often leads to greater empathy, the kind that comes from traveling to other states or countries, getting to know people you might not have otherwise, or simply from life experience, going through some hard times and maybe receiving help from somewhere or someone you didn't expect that changes your outlook

so, no, people can and do change with life experience

like seriously have you never seen anyone commenting stuff like "I used to be a racist little shit before I wised up"  "man I used to be edgy for the sake of edgy until I learned to be better"  "I really lament the state of the rest of my family, glad I learned to grow up and wish they could too"

I did not argue that people don't change with life experience or that people can't change.  In fact, that was actually my very argument - that they can change their views after having a different life experience which often comes from the normalization of whatever they were against, and not because they were reasoned into changing their mind.  And that normalization starts with marginalizing their public bigiotry. 

[BIONIC]

How is a racist supposed to change their opinion if every single person they hear speaking about racism is a racist?  Or someone born into a religious family before the 20th century? Or born in China today? Free speech is much more valuable to the objectionable than to the objector.

[mormapope]

I see we're on the hunky dory/kumbaya level of pseudo-intellectualism stage regarding change and positivity.  Some of you live in very curated bubbles and perspectives. If someone spends decades believing in hateful and fantastical narratives for decades, the chance of that person changing is incredibly slim.

[headwalk]

a racist old white bloke being told why he's racist isn't going to do shit. a racist old white bloke getting chatting with a black bloke at the football and singing songs together about harry kane being a diving mong, that's where divisions crumble.

[HaughtyFrank]

Anytime I hear psyops I think

[nudemacusers]

we just need a band of BIPOC porn wenches to suck the racism out of everyone's dick in america.

[Boredfrom]

I see we're on the hunky dory/kumbaya level of pseudo-intellectualism stage regarding change and positivity.  Some of you live in very curated bubbles and perspectives. If someone spends decades believing in hateful and fantastical narratives for decades, the chance of that person changing is incredibly slim.

Of course, but in the end you also don’t exactly know the background of most people. And for better or worse, in history  is not like people just woke up one day and just said “being racist is bad”.

I don’t think is exactly wrong shame racist or calling them out but this past 6-7 years have also been Kind of worrying in what people consider racist and whiling to marginalize.

I did not argue that people don't change with life experience or that people can't change.  In fact, that was actually my very argument - that they can change their views after having a different life experience which often comes from the normalization of whatever they were against, and not because they were reasoned into changing their mind.

I kind of agree with this notion, but I suspect it probably helps way more that you think pointing out is entirely irrational being racist.

[thetylerrob]

Why not just support censorship of hate speech while also keeping it in mind that it's not good that huge corporations have this much power to dictate the conversation online? Do yall really not see how this stuff could set a dangerous precedent?   

[team filler]

Anytime I hear psyops I think

I always think of the one guy we had here who kept going on about psyops. loved that guy 

[james]

Guys help, Twitter has deleted at least 10k of my followers.

Im not sure how many I had, but my current number says 62 followers and thats clearly not accurate since Ive been active on Twitter for years. 

[Boredfrom]

Why not just support censorship of hate speech while also keeping it in mind that it's not good that huge corporations have this much power to dictate the conversation online? Do yall really not see how this stuff could set a dangerous precedent?   

Probably because many people actually wish their side could control the online discourse. How many times in this forum we pointed and laugh in how much ERA wants to have China Internet laws?

Is not like Trumptards are talking in good faith about “Free speech” either given Trump demands of loyalty and the republican push to “moderate social media”.

[Madrun Badrun]

I trust Twitter and Google way more than the US government.   I'm all for stronger government regulation of social/regular media in terms of discourse and fack checking but the issue is half the US government is the problem.  Ted Cruz and Fox News are the problem.  Currently, I think it's easier to force Twitter, through money and social pressure, to be a good regulating body than it is for the government to be one.   In any other western country, you'd be right though.  And you can talk about dangerous precedent but this is a dangerous time now and action needs to be taken.  If Twitter is the one to step up, well that's just how crap the situation is.  Honestly, the leeway social media companies get to act like this is going to run out is a few months so I'm happy for them to push left while they can. 

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

I see we're on the hunky dory/kumbaya level of pseudo-intellectualism stage regarding change and positivity.  Some of you live in very curated bubbles and perspectives. If someone spends decades believing in hateful and fantastical narratives for decades, the chance of that person changing is incredibly slim.

Right, but if you're being that reductionist about anti-social mentalities and behaviours anyway, you can extend that to what is the point in providing education in prison, because recidivism is never going to be 100% solvable as there will always be career criminals who enjoy that life, or what is the point of having drug rehabilitation centres because addiction is never going to be 100% solvable because there will always be unrepentant junkies.

Sure, its much cheaper and easier to just sack off portions of society that display aberrant behaviours, but that's pretty much the right wing approach to fixing society and helping those who can still be helped.
Fuck 'em if they can't bootstrap their own rehabilitation.

[Boredfrom]

I trust Twitter and Google way more than the US government.   I'm all for stronger government regulation of social/regular media in terms of discourse and fack checking but the issue is half the US government is the problem.  Ted Cruz and Fox News are the problem.  Currently, I think it's easier to force Twitter, through money and social pressure, to be a good regulating body than it is for the government to be one.   In any other western country, you'd be right though.  And you can talk about dangerous precedent but this is a dangerous time now and action needs to be taken.  If Twitter is the one to step up, well that's just how crap the situation is.  Honestly, the leeway social media companies get to act like this is going to run out is a few months so I'm happy for them to push left while they can.

Man, what a weird twist of American exceptionalism.

Is too bad the we, the World, tend to follow suit regardless of your unique situations. Especially given most tech giants are US companies.

[Madrun Badrun]

I see we're on the hunky dory/kumbaya level of pseudo-intellectualism stage regarding change and positivity.  Some of you live in very curated bubbles and perspectives. If someone spends decades believing in hateful and fantastical narratives for decades, the chance of that person changing is incredibly slim.

Right, but if you're being that reductionist about anti-social mentalities and behaviours anyway, you can extend that to what is the point in providing education in prison, because recidivism is never going to be 100% solvable as there will always be career criminals who enjoy that life, or what is the point of having drug rehabilitation centres because addiction is never going to be 100% solvable because there will always be unrepentant junkies.

Sure, its much cheaper and easier to just sack off portions of society that display aberrant behaviours, but that's pretty much the right wing approach to fixing society and helping those who can still be helped.
Fuck 'em if they can't bootstrap their own rehabilitation.

That is a wild extrapolation

[Madrun Badrun]

I trust Twitter and Google way more than the US government.   I'm all for stronger government regulation of social/regular media in terms of discourse and fack checking but the issue is half the US government is the problem.  Ted Cruz and Fox News are the problem.  Currently, I think it's easier to force Twitter, through money and social pressure, to be a good regulating body than it is for the government to be one.   In any other western country, you'd be right though.  And you can talk about dangerous precedent but this is a dangerous time now and action needs to be taken.  If Twitter is the one to step up, well that's just how crap the situation is.  Honestly, the leeway social media companies get to act like this is going to run out is a few months so I'm happy for them to push left while they can.

Man, what a weird twist of American exceptionalism.

Is too bad the we, the World, tend to follow suit regardless of your unique situations. Especially given most tech giants are US companies.

It's not American Exceptionalism, it's exceptional that the US government is in the state it is in.  I literally said I approve of stronger government regulations of social media in lieu of them monitoring themselves when I have more trust in the government than the company.  If Twitter, Google, and Facebook, sat down with the Dems in the next few months and hashed out regulations I'd be all for it.