Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP  (Read 5869934 times)

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Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13920 on: February 14, 2018, 05:08:29 PM »
Your capacity for cognitive dissonance and ability to dig in and not admit mistakes is truly astounding etiolate.

Mattis, in testimony regarding ongoing events in the middle east, is speaking about past uses of Sarin gas. Which he infers as confirmed. He goes on to speak about ongoing allegations of sarin gas use, that the government has not independently confirmed, but allegations from multiple groups are present. This is really not that hard to grasp.

I wonder how the sarin gas ended up in those kids last April? Whats next etiolate, you gonna quote the trustworthy Russian defense ministry that claimed the bombs dropped just magically hit a rebel warehouse with sarin gas reserves, fingerprinted as being from the government, and that was the cause?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 05:13:20 PM by Nola »

Broseidon

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13921 on: February 14, 2018, 05:28:05 PM »
Strange how these multiple different rebel groups, in very different parts of the country, several years apart, are somehow able to get their hands on binary Sarin, with chemical signatures peculiar to those of government stockpiles (known due to the CW handover deal) and then only ever use it on themselves via munitions used only by pro-Assad forces, and the top secret jets and helicopters that they use exclusively for false flag Sarin ops on themselves and their own communities, and no other purpose.
bent

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13922 on: February 14, 2018, 05:39:00 PM »
Strange how these multiple different rebel groups, in very different parts of the country, several years apart, are somehow able to get their hands on binary Sarin, with chemical signatures peculiar to those of government stockpiles (known due to the CW handover deal) and then only ever use it on themselves via munitions used only by pro-Assad forces, and the top secret jets and helicopters that they use exclusively for false flag Sarin ops on themselves and their own communities, and no other purpose.


Fuuuuuuuck.... this goes even deeper than I suspected!

Trent Dole

  • the sharpest tool in the shed
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13923 on: February 14, 2018, 06:14:46 PM »
Stop engaging shithead and making the thread unreadable ya mooks. :doge
Hi

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13924 on: February 14, 2018, 06:26:28 PM »
When yo squad is ready to bomb Baghdad


In retrospect the Iraq war was really a moment of bonding for Americans.

- Bipartisan support (Both the Bushes and Clintons loved the idea)
- Hating against Saddam (Saddam was universally hated)
- Multi-racial support (Condi and Powell were in as well as Cheney and Rummy)
- Against the communists (only Bernie voted against)
- Rich and poor suffered equally (poor because they got shot, rich because they fucked it all up and it blew up their careers and stocks later)
🤴

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13925 on: February 14, 2018, 06:31:41 PM »
lol, no offense, but that is a pretty odd metric to measure foreign policy success.

I have no problem talking about many of the missteps of the Obama administration on foreign policy, but I'm not sure this makes that case in any real way.

On Iraq, its not really that strange that Iraq's economy turned around(in terms of GDP) after decades of crippling sanctions were lifted and we injected billions into their economy to try and (poorly) rebuild the country after an invasion destroyed large pockets of the economic hubs of the country.

Syria is even more bizarre, what exactly would you of proposed the Obama administration do in Syria that would of stopped the emerging Civil War that has led to an enormous refugee crisis and countless deaths? I think the "compared to what" is where I often fail to get good answers that aren't littered with asterisks. So it's why I have had a more difficult time criticizing Obama's handling of that.

I think as we see now in Syria, there really are not a lot of good answers that don't involve major escalation or support of genocide. The former risks both a repeat of Iraq and the potential for even greater escalation as you are butting up against major geopolitical rivals that have vested interest in the governing regime.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 06:37:15 PM by Nola »

Nintex

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13926 on: February 14, 2018, 06:38:57 PM »
People who mention the Iraq economy always forget that with one pen stroke Georgie signed away all their debt.
Because loans issued to Saddam weren't valid or something.

The debt of an entire nation, gone.

Assad on the other hand had to lend money from Russia and Iran as well as give away lucrative natural resources to Rosneft and sell weapons to North Korea (an increasingly risky venture).
Putin isn't helping out for free.

The Trump giveth and the Trump taketh away
https://twitter.com/ReutersUS/status/963920814549725184
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:03:25 PM by Nintex »
🤴

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13927 on: February 14, 2018, 07:26:18 PM »
Damn, you really DO like Hitchens!

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13928 on: February 14, 2018, 07:57:52 PM »
Quote
Don't give weapons to rebel groups if you're not going to guarantee that the Civil War will end because of it. Enforce a no fly zone so that the Syrian air force doesn't terrorize civilians or gas children. Optional: be willing to negotiate with Assad regime so that, in exchange for democratic elections and release of political prisoners and handing over WMDs, UN coalition forces secure country against fundamentalist death cults. And lastly, when the region becomes a giant proxy war for various interest groups who do not have the restraint becoming of civilized nations, be willing to utilize military hegemony and enforce the Pax America by bringing together the various parties and establishing who-gets-what.

I'd start my critique of Obama with the tepid escalation strategy in Afghanistan. A strategy that Trump seems to have doubled down on. But that is not really relevant.

On Syria, so then you are stuck in the position of genocide or potential regime change with further escalatory potential, which are both not exactly desirable strategies.

On the no-fly zone, here is Susan Rice's comment on that. I think it is a pretty fair counter-argument to the sort of arguments people like Evelyn Farkas were going around talking about during that same time:

Quote
34:34 Charlie Rose: So you look for alternatives and couldn't find them, even though they are.

34:37 Susan Rice: We didn't find suitable alternatives, satisfactory. Of course, there were people advocating for a "no fly."

34:43Charlie Rose: Exactly.

34:44 Susan Rice: So let's talk about that, for example. What would a "no fly" zone have done? The "no fly" zone, the concept was to create a swath of territory, most of the time it was discussed on the northern border of Syria with Turkey, where people could flee the fighting and have relative security, okay. That was the concept. "No fly" zone, however, and, by the way, just to be clear, and try to prevent Assad from using air power, barrel bombs, whatever, against civilians, we could have done that, but it would have been at great cost to the counter ISIL campaign in terms of diversion of assets and resources. We have --

35:25 Charlie Rose: We don't have enough power to do both?

35:27 Susan Rice: We're doing a lot of things in the world simultaneously. And no, the answer is, had we chosen to enforce the significant "no fly" zone, we would have taken assets away from the counter ISIL fight in Iraq and Syria. That's the choice we could have made. It wasn't one we thought was directly serving our proximate interests. Moreover, you can't just have folks, you know, protecting people on the ground through air power in the sky. You need to have somebody on the ground providing that protection. And there wasn't, NATO country, not Turkey, not anybody at that time, willing to provide that kind of protection. So, it was an idea that sounded good in theory, but when you peeled it back and talked about what would it actually entail, what diminution of our support for the ISIL campaign. Who is going to provide the ground force? How many air caps would that require? It didn't end up making sense.

I think that is what I am talking about when I mention asterisk when it comes alternative strategies. The US did not have the coordinating resources to commit, or the commitment from allies, to effectively enforce a no-fly zone from the ground without a diversion or significant and notable escalation of resources. I don't have a problem with people saying that trade-off was perhaps the superior strategy, acknowledging the trade offs and risks that come with that strategy, but to frame it like it is an obvious blunder is a bit disingenuous IMO.

Which gets to you point about UN forces,  its hard to anchor an alternative strategy around cooperation from people that were not providing any significant military cooperation at the time. And Assad had no interest in stepping aside, which is the major part of why this escalated in the first place. Why this continues to be an elusive and difficult thing to figure out IMO. We didn't start the Civil War, and the country was going to be on a path of destabilization with or without our intervention. You had the splitting of the free Syrian Army, that fracturing into ISIS factions, which we were primarily focusing resources on, the emergence of multiple militias and rebel groups. Without any intervention, there is a strong case to be made that Assad and their Russian allies see that as an opening to further bulldoze and engage with the use of illegal chemical weapons and draconian pacification tactics to bring the country under heel.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 08:03:45 PM by Nola »

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13929 on: February 14, 2018, 09:05:46 PM »
So we've moved on from "okay Iraq was a mistake but that shouldn't ruin Christopher Hitchens' reputation" to apologetics for the war itself.

Cool. Great.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13930 on: February 14, 2018, 09:12:39 PM »
There are a lot of assumptions in that response I fundamentally disagree with but before I respond I want to take the time to reread Leon Panetta's memoir.

RE: the splitting of the FSA, I also want to listen to what Robert Ford had to say about that again, because I remember him being extremely frustrated over our noncommittal and tepid support of them.

The FSA unquestionably saw a lot of fracturing and desertion, how much to ISIS and how much to other organizations is certainly up for debate, the FSA was paying a pittance, there was reportedly a lot of morale issues midway in, but I guess how much desertion and to where could be contentious? Saying split implies a 50% drop and that was not what I meant to imply. But I don't really think that has a whole lot to do with the points I was trying to make from my side?

I mean you had a conflict that saw roughly 75,000 deaths by the time America really started to intervene on the side of the rebels with actual military support, not just passive aid. Is the argument the fault that we should of unilaterally gone all in at that point? Committed active ground troops to engage and advance the rebels positions? Just not of done anything? I guess on the later their is a callous political argument that like Darfur, if you just refuse to engage at all, history will tend to look past that indiscretion rather quickly. But I am not sure I agree with your argument that if America had just not committed, they would of prevented civilian suffering. The Syrian government was actively losing territory, they were taking heavy loses, even without the aid of American military support, the conflict was seemingly poised to be extremely bloody even without American intervention on that front.

I think at the end of the day you have to look at it on initial principles and philosophy. If you take the assumption that pacifying the humanitarian crisis and the regime's aggressive behavior would take a large number of troops on the ground and long-term commitment to rebuilding the country, similar to Iraq, but with even greater geopolitical risk due to the regimes alliances and commitments, which I think is a fair assumption, the question becomes, are you willing to engage in that? If the answer is no, which it was for the Obama administration, it becomes a lot harder for me to really shame the Obama administration's decisions following that initial stance.

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13931 on: February 14, 2018, 09:34:43 PM »
He once said, "Show me a single country Kissinger left off better than he found it." I wondered for a long time how the man who dragged Reagan through the mud for Grenada would become among the longest and most vocal supporters of the Iraq War (not just in 2003 but as early as '98). And eventually I realized, not through mental contortion but through simple moral principles, he had been consistent all along. Although I'm sure he was just jealous of Susan Sontag getting her name on a Sarajevo town square.

Or maybe he just had stock in Halliburton.  :thinking
©ZH

curly

  • cultural maoist
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13932 on: February 14, 2018, 09:41:40 PM »
Wonder how Iraqis feel about Bush's foreign policy and if they're better off because of it

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13933 on: February 14, 2018, 09:44:44 PM »
Uhh...  aren't we greeted as liberators?

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Liberators of ISIS!   :dice
[close]
©ZH

curly

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13934 on: February 14, 2018, 09:50:35 PM »
The whole idea is so stupid. Syria was a civil war, in Iraq we were the ones that started the fucking catastrophe. You can't compare them like for like. There wouldn't even be an ISIS without Iraq. You could argue plausibly that there wouldn't have been a Syrian civil war without Iraq.

curly

  • cultural maoist
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13935 on: February 14, 2018, 10:01:14 PM »
OK let's hear from the Sunnis and Shiites now

Or the hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis

The whole idea is so stupid. Syria was a civil war, in Iraq we were the ones that started the fucking catastrophe. You can't compare them like for like. There wouldn't even be an ISIS without Iraq. You could argue plausibly that there wouldn't have been a Syrian civil war without Iraq.
So much of this is wrong. Iraq and Syria were both dictatorships and both of them became embroiled in sectarian civil war. They are absolutely comparable. There wouldn't have been an ISIS without Syria, not Iraq (did you forget where it reached critical mass?). And I shudder to think what Saddam Hussein would have done if Assad's country was falling apart next door.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:19:43 PM by curly »

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13936 on: February 14, 2018, 10:02:01 PM »
I remember someone (Daniel Davies?) pointing out circa 2005-6 that Hitchens had gone from "why isn't the media covering all the good news from Iraq?" to "why isn't the media covering the country outside of the Sunni triangle?" to "why isn't the media covering Kurdistan?"

curly

  • cultural maoist
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13937 on: February 14, 2018, 10:20:33 PM »
The whole idea is so stupid. Syria was a civil war, in Iraq we were the ones that started the fucking catastrophe. You can't compare them like for like. There wouldn't even be an ISIS without Iraq. You could argue plausibly that there wouldn't have been a Syrian civil war without Iraq.
So much of this is wrong. Iraq and Syria were both dictatorships and both of them became embroiled in sectarian civil war. They are absolutely comparable. There wouldn't have been an ISIS without Syria, not Iraq (did you forget where it reached critical mass?). And I shudder to think what Saddam Hussein would have done if Assad's country was falling apart next door.

We INVADED one and not the other. We were the instigating actor in one and not the other. We started that sectarian civil war. The organization ISIL was born in the Iraqi insurgency. It's capital was in Mosul. It allied itself with Iraqi Sunni tribesmen who felt it was the better alternative to the Shiite-dominated government in Baghdad that we made possible. It armed itself with weapons supplied to Iraqi troops by the US, weapons the Iraqis abandoned because the Iraqi army and all institutions of the Iraqi state were a joke, also because we invaded and overthrew the government. That sectarian civil war which we made possible inflamed sectarian tensions across the Middle East, with the help of our allies in the region.

Also how is a poll from 2014 about when the US troops should have withdrawn post-invasion evidence for Iraqi support for the invasion itself.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:31:32 PM by curly »

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13938 on: February 14, 2018, 10:41:48 PM »
OK let's hear from the Sunnis and Shiites now

Or the hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis
I've got the UN polls right here and by 2007 most Iraqis hated American troops. But of course by 2014 the public was split about whether the US should have withdrawn at all! My position is that I think there was serious mishandling of the reconstruction of Iraq, Paul Bremer should be in jail, etc. But I hold out hope that there was a right way to do it.

There obviously was a better way to do it. Or at least avoid taking certain actions that were undeniably destructive. But IMO that gets to part of the heart of the problem with the situation altogether. These were people with surprisingly shallow(with a mix of corrupt) ideas on what needs to happen after you have created the philosophical rationalization to justify preventive war and wholesale regime change. And the State Department and the intelligence agencies tried to warn them of their own ignorance, but there was no avoiding their arrogance in it.

And it was already a long response for a place like this, but Syria and Iraq are materially different. Syria, by every metric we have, would be a much more difficult task if you subscribe to all-in commitment to oust Assad, secure the country, and install a democratic system of government.

One of the arguments for why things could of gone better in Iraq under different leadership was because of the unified and initially cooperative military force outside of the loyalist Republican Guard and the largely cooperative Ba'athist bureaucracy. That had you been more sensitive, aware and proactive in the dynamics of those relationships, you could of fostered a much smoother transition and had a lot more resources and trained security forces to deal with a much smaller insurgency of Al Qaeda fighters/Saddam loyalists that would likely not be able to recruit much, if any, Ba'ahists or military forces.  Though to argue myself, the sectarian divisions were always there(which is part of why strongmen were supported to secure often at-odds factions within borders, because they kinda work in that regard, at least temporarily), so there still is a fairly decent probability that those tensions were bound to bloom regardless, and that civil war would still be hard to avoid.

That is really not the case in Syria from everything we have seen. The country is embroiled in a civil war already, tensions that have continued to grow since the Arab Spring, and the divisions run deep, and there is anything but a unifying social and structural fabric to lean on that would make the potential transition a smooth one. So aside from the points others have made about the obvious differences, I think tactically there is a lot more uncertainly and risk in Syria, and likely that is also why(along with geopolitical issues) two administrations, and the military, have now been hesitant to escalate to that sort of strategy.



etiolate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13939 on: February 14, 2018, 10:55:16 PM »
We've been eyeing regime change in Syria for awhile. I doubt the civil war didn't have some US fingers in it.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAMASCUS5399_a.html

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13940 on: February 14, 2018, 11:06:01 PM »
Something that needs to be keept in mind

 Iraq voted us out of the country, for some reason a sect of Americans tend to forget that it was the Iraqi's that voted for American forces to largely withdraw from the country. The arguments that don't try to gloss over that largely seem to involve disregarding the will of the democracy we invaded the country to install. Or in Panetta's book, claiming that had Obama just asserted more pressure than had been applied, the Iranian aligned Maliki government would of caved to the will of our self-interest above his own self-interest at the time. Which on the first point, seems slightly hypocritical and damaging in its own right for a government that was already having charges of puppet masters - be it America or Iran - blanketing the ruling members of the government. On the second point, it seems to be a sort of counter-factual that is unknowable, but its hard to imagine short of coercion why that should be assumed to be easily possible? Or even possible at all?

Furthermore, as former intelligence members have pointed out, there is no guarantee that a 6 month, 1 year, or whatever delay was going to remove the rise of ISIS in some other capacity. Just on a different time scale or geographical dispersion.


curly

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13941 on: February 14, 2018, 11:06:55 PM »
This argument is a dead end but "Obama should have made Iraq respect it's Sunni population more" is a hilarious line

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13942 on: February 14, 2018, 11:07:03 PM »
I think Obama should have secured a Status of Forces Agreement with Iraq. I think Obama should have done more to make Iraq respect its Sunni population.

This is magical thinking.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13943 on: February 14, 2018, 11:09:17 PM »
If you assume that Iraqis would acquiesce to the US setting internal Iraqi policy and that US officials should have been able to figure out what the proper policies were than yeah, we're just a couple inflection points away from everything being peachy.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13944 on: February 14, 2018, 11:14:36 PM »
We've been eyeing regime change in Syria for awhile. I doubt the civil war didn't have some US fingers in it.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAMASCUS5399_a.html

Just like you doubt the debunking of the Seth Rich story will hold.

In both instances, you are substituting faith in conspiracies for evidence, and in both instances, you are still a moron.


Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13945 on: February 14, 2018, 11:24:06 PM »
There is no doubt in my mind that, before a third of the population fled or died, an overthrow of Assad by the Free Syrian Army would have resulted in a democratic government.

Lordy.

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13946 on: February 14, 2018, 11:26:40 PM »
One thing worth mentioning is that the idea that the American people would have supported putting a substantial number of  boots on the ground in Syria in 2011 or 2012 is batshit insane.

Obama would have been crucified as the Muslim traitor he was if he came out in full throated support of starting a third open-ended, long-term military commitment and subsequent rebuilding in 2011, when like 70% of Americans, and everyone that had voted for him hated the Iraq War with the fury of a thousand suns.

Right thing, wrong thing, whatever, he never really had too much choice in the matter. It was very clear at the time that the country had no real desire to drop $1 trillion, again, on rescuing some third world shithole from itself by bombing it into the Stone Age, when the track record for such things was not so hot.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13947 on: February 14, 2018, 11:29:16 PM »
how many have flipped the other way since trump?

Not many.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C2MVeM2K7WgqmJw5RCQbWyTo2u73CX1pI8zw_G-7BJo/edit#gid=2144047916

In party contested races

- 38 seats have flipped from R to D.

- 5 seats have flipped from D to R.


EDIT: Fixed because I can't write.

So far we're looking at a blue Tsunami so I'd like to see what you think alot is.

Every last seat in dem hands?  :doge

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13948 on: February 14, 2018, 11:52:50 PM »
I think if there was an Arab Spring in the alternate timeline without the Iraq War, Iraq would have been much more susceptible to it than Syria was, primarily because it was surrounded on all borders by countries hungry for the pieces. I think you're wrong vis-a-vis divisions in Syria, by the way. During the start of the civil war and for a long time before that I think Syrian politics has been unified Sunni, Christian, and Kurdish resentment against a ruling Alawite elite. There is no doubt in my mind that, before a third of the population fled or died, an overthrow of Assad by the Free Syrian Army would have resulted in a democratic government.

But in any case I don't necessarily subscribe to ousting Assad. What I want is for there to have been no arms going into Syria at all (from Russia or the US or Turkey), I would have wanted there to have been a no-fly zone (and I still haven't responded to your Susan Rice quote yet).

And I'm not advocating for anything in Syria. It's too late to do anything. The country is gone. The debate over it now is like how to stop the house from burning down even though the kids and the dog are dead. Best you can do is give Iraq some bits in the East, let Kurdistan take the parts in the North, hope Saudi Arabia stops sending radical jihadists there, etc.

I'd keep in mind the Arab Spring was not at its core really about a hunger for democracy, so much as a rebellion against food prices, largely coming from commodity speculation that drove up the cost of grains and essential food 2. Though certainly that is merely the spark and agendas got placed on top of that. In that context though, its hard to say. Iraq was already under heavy pressure due to sanctions, would the run on commodities been a tipping point for an already beaten down populace or a drop in the bucket? In the known timeline, Iraq certainly succumbed to pressures of the Arab Spring. But that is the problem with these sort of speculative things. It doesn't end, and its pretty much impossible to find agreement when you start engaging in alternative future discussions.

On Syria, I just think the solutions you are talking about(no arms into Syria) is/was incredibly escalatory. How do you respond if Russia breaks that embargo? Which they almost certainly would, and I am not an international law expert, but I am not sure America would have the standing to deny those sales? In terms of now, the thing is Turkey isn't going to let the Kurds take Turkish land. Assad and Russia aren't going to allow a loss of their borders to Iraq, and without consent, that certainly wouldn't be legal under international law anyways. Not trying to be argumentative, but just pointing out why I think this, like before, is really a problem with only a bunch of high risk, problematic solutions.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:58:27 PM by Nola »

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13949 on: February 14, 2018, 11:59:47 PM »
One thing worth mentioning is that the idea that the American people would have supported putting a substantial number of  boots on the ground in Syria in 2011 or 2012 is batshit insane.

Obama would have been crucified as the Muslim traitor he was if he came out in full throated support of starting a third open-ended, long-term military commitment and subsequent rebuilding in 2011, when like 70% of Americans, and everyone that had voted for him hated the Iraq War with the fury of a thousand suns.

Right thing, wrong thing, whatever, he never really had too much choice in the matter. It was very clear at the time that the country had no real desire to drop $1 trillion, again, on rescuing some third world shithole from itself by bombing it into the Stone Age, when the track record for such things was not so hot.

Not only that, but we(at least I find myself forgetting this often) are compartmentalizing Syria into this isolated box and discussing it, forgetting the larger geopolitical context in 2011.

There was no less than a dozen middle eastern countries facing unrest from the Arab Spring. Many of which still had unresolved conflicts along with Syria going into 2012. Including Iraq.

No one really knew for certain what was going to go on. We pretty much took a unified approach of supporting the movements, but for obvious reasons, not committing to strongly intervening in every single case.


TakingBackSunday

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13951 on: February 15, 2018, 11:35:10 AM »
yo, WHAT?
püp

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13952 on: February 15, 2018, 01:16:51 PM »
In practice republicans had already ended it.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13953 on: February 15, 2018, 01:20:31 PM »
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/14/joe-manchin-trump-immigration-plan-408981

Quit it with the purity tests, Bernie Bros. All that matters is electing somebody who has a D next to their name.


kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13954 on: February 15, 2018, 01:40:30 PM »
I’m not gonna knock Joe Manchin for being Luke warmly  pro-life in West Virginia.

He’s still a relatively reliable Democratic vote on many things. Definitely some people need to realize that in some red states, finding someone who is technically pro-life but doesn’t really care much about it, and doesn’t have any specific restrictions he wants to try to pile onto women is as good as you are going to get.

I’d say maybe we don’t want to throw pro-lifers and 20 week abortion restrictionists (like Hillary) to the top of the ticket, but if your choices are “pro lifer” that spends very little time talking about it, and somebody who stands in front of the senate screeching about Jesus and dead babies with slides of aborted fetuses, then that first one is way preferable.

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13955 on: February 15, 2018, 01:50:37 PM »
So apparently Nikolas Cruz from South Florida is a white supremacist.

Did they forget to check his drivers license or something? Did he try to tell them he was Portuguese?

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13956 on: February 15, 2018, 02:12:57 PM »
So apparently Nikolas Cruz from South Florida is a white supremacist.

Did they forget to check his drivers license or something? Did he try to tell them he was Portuguese?

According to the right-wing, he was supposed to be a Dreamer and the nail in the coffin for the libtards.

....I have no real problem with Joe Manchin, just found that humorous, I do think the left is a bit misguided in how much their particular brand of right-wing pandering in red states actually benefits them, but thats another issue.

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13957 on: February 15, 2018, 02:33:35 PM »
So apparently Nikolas Cruz from South Florida is a white supremacist.

Did they forget to check his drivers license or something? Did he try to tell them he was Portuguese?

If white supremacy had a draft and white people were the San Antonio Spurs, 2nd/3rd gen Hispanics would be that intriguing foreign big man that gets drafted in the second round, stays overseas, then joins the team and dominates when the time is right.

the future
:rejoice
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 04:38:50 PM by Phoenix Dark »
010

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13958 on: February 15, 2018, 02:54:10 PM »
Yeah, "white people becoming a minority will end racism" sounds good until you remember how white people were going to become a minority thanks to the influx of Italians and slavs.


edit: also, there's whatever is going on here

https://twitter.com/KrangTNelson/status/962134513341157384
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 02:59:12 PM by Mandark »

Rufus

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13959 on: February 15, 2018, 03:18:58 PM »
Btw, nobody here hates you. Just wanted to throw that out there.

Great Rumbler

  • Dab on the sinners
  • Global Moderator
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13960 on: February 15, 2018, 03:43:28 PM »
Woke up to see a bunch of posts in here of me defending the Iraq War

What is wrong with me  :beli

You need a hug, breh?
dog

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13961 on: February 15, 2018, 03:44:51 PM »
Woke up to see a bunch of posts in here of me defending the Iraq War

What is wrong with me  :beli
how about we invade some Iraq


sounds good to me


Remember, I don't drink, I told everybody I don't drink. Just ask Bill, I mean, HIll, I mean...


JESUS CHRIST PEOPLE
🤴

TVC15

  • Laugh when you can, it’s cheap medicine -LB
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13962 on: February 15, 2018, 03:53:52 PM »
Yeah, "white people becoming a minority will end racism" sounds good until you remember how white people were going to become a minority thanks to the influx of Italians and slavs.


edit: also, there's whatever is going on here

https://twitter.com/KrangTNelson/status/962134513341157384

:six:
serge

team filler

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13963 on: February 15, 2018, 04:16:28 PM »
Btw, nobody here hates you. Just wanted to throw that out there.
:hitler
*****

sphagnum

  • Junior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13964 on: February 15, 2018, 04:19:23 PM »
DYING FOR BUSH'S OIL PROFITS

Rufus

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13965 on: February 15, 2018, 06:55:51 PM »

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13966 on: February 15, 2018, 07:55:36 PM »
Woke up to see a bunch of posts in here of me defending the Iraq War

What is wrong with me  :beli

If thou gaze long enough into the Toilet, the Toilet will also gaze into thee

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13967 on: February 16, 2018, 12:19:21 AM »
Rick Gates flipped.

 :doge It's just a democrat scheme doe.  :doge

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13968 on: February 16, 2018, 12:22:37 AM »
Rick Gates flipped.

 :doge It's just a democrat scheme doe.  :doge

I didn't see that, though I know it had been speculated for a while now. And the lawfare guys and girls had been speculating it since the indictments due to Gates age and family...  I did see where Bannon has apparently been meeting with Muller for an extensive amount of time.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13969 on: February 16, 2018, 12:26:01 AM »
Rick Gates flipped.

 :doge It's just a democrat scheme doe.  :doge

I didn't see that, though I know it had been speculated for a while now. And the lawfare guys and girls had been speculating it since the indictments due to Gates age and family...  I did see where Bannon has apparently been meeting with Muller for an extensive amount of time.

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/964277713740750854?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FCNNPolitics%2Fstatus%2F964277713740750854

It's nothing and Trump is innocent.

 :mueller

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13970 on: February 16, 2018, 12:31:26 AM »
Gates is an interesting one because his flipping technically may not indicate anything with Trump, but more solidifying the case against Manafort.

Rats and a sinking ship and all that.

Or, you know, the right-hand man to Manafort may have quite the story to tell that very potentially overlaps into things that incriminate people in the Trump campaign given he was Manafort's deputy and theoretically was intimately knowledgable of all of Manafort's business.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13971 on: February 16, 2018, 12:36:05 AM »
Gates is an interesting one because his flipping technically may not indicate anything with Trump, but more solidifying the case against Manafort.

Rats and a sinking ship and all that.

Or, you know, the right-hand man to Manafort may have quite the story to tell that very potentially overlaps into things that incriminate people in the Trump campaign given he was Manafort's deputy and theoretically was intimately knowledgable of all of Manafort's business.

Rick Wilson said the white house should be worried. They're going after bigger fish than just Manafort.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13972 on: February 16, 2018, 12:48:54 AM »
Gates is an interesting one because his flipping technically may not indicate anything with Trump, but more solidifying the case against Manafort.

Rats and a sinking ship and all that.

Or, you know, the right-hand man to Manafort may have quite the story to tell that very potentially overlaps into things that incriminate people in the Trump campaign given he was Manafort's deputy and theoretically was intimately knowledgable of all of Manafort's business.

Rick Wilson said the white house should be worried. They're going after bigger fish than just Manafort.

I mean if pushed with a gun to my head I would assume part of the deal involved people close to Trump as well, if not evidence that will move very close to Trump himself, but I think it is still good to keep the breadth of possibilities open.

There is certainly a scenario where Mueller may feel his case against Manafort is not quite strong enough, or he is hoping to put more pressure on Manafort because Gates doesn't have the goods he wants and is hoping it encourages Manafort to flip. So I don't want to completely dismiss that. But if Mueller is offering a plea deal to someone like Gates, his working history suggests it shouldn't be underplayed.

Trent Dole

  • the sharpest tool in the shed
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13973 on: February 16, 2018, 01:31:03 AM »
Let's dancing
Hi

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13974 on: February 16, 2018, 02:44:59 AM »
It's no conspiracy, they just know pushing public choice theory means they'll always have a cushy job.

Listen guys this was actually a really nice burn on public choice theory and I don't want people to miss out on it.

team filler

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13975 on: February 16, 2018, 02:54:15 AM »
public choice theory annihilated
*****

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13976 on: February 16, 2018, 03:08:47 AM »
I think the lack of interest in yet another cowardly Mandark smear by the highly rational consumers of The Bore instead provides strong evidence for the validity of public choice theory.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
[close]

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13977 on: February 16, 2018, 05:51:42 AM »
Please like for public life theory.
010

Atramental

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13978 on: February 16, 2018, 07:53:28 AM »
Speaking as a designer who deals with details all day, stop obsessing. Emotes are human caricatures anyways. How realistic is a floating head or a leg less torso, in the first place? Not very.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 07:59:30 AM by Atramental »

Rufus

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The Benji Memo
« Reply #13979 on: February 16, 2018, 08:39:51 AM »
Rayman annihilated.