Author Topic: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.  (Read 219227 times)

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Himu

  • Senior Member
Nothing of value, just talking aloud.

It’s shame libertarian has been so tainted by right libertarians in America that the mere prospect of libertarianism is scoffed by many liberals and the far left when many libertarian principles - personal liberty, personhood, stuff like that - are perfectly compatible. For example, the freedom to choose in relation to abortion. This is a libertarian - and by extension liberal expression. Definitely what happens when libertarians are ran by loons who prize businesses over people. Looking at the left libertarianism as expressed in European channels makes a lot of the principles of libertarian thought readily appealing.  I truly wonder if the left in America could gain more in-roads politically by repackaging libertarian philosophy towards its more European definition. I think the concept of libertarianism (as expressed in the European vein) is identifiably a part of American values.

My favorite strain of libertarianism is catholic libertarianism and how they (libertarian Catholics) contend that libertarian thought (in so far the American definition of the philosophy) is apparently compatible with Catholicism despite great opposition to it as officially ruled by the Church.

Further reading:

https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/distinctly-catholic/libertarianism-enemy-catholic-social-thought-has-no-place-america

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2013/11/18/catholicism-and-libertarianism/
IYKYK

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member

Himu

  • Senior Member
Of course there’s libertarian socialism which is the camp I hail from. Although I’m no longer socialist I still believe in libertarianism. Unfortunately a lot of the American socialists still don’t view libertarianism with any legitimacy and who can blame them when you look at American part of the camp.

I guess you can say that it makes me sad that legitimate libertarian thought has been dummified by American masses to excuse selfish capitalism when the philosophy is mostly about human freedom. Unfortunately they have decided that freedom means the freedom to do whatever the hell I want rather than the genuine expression that human life inherently deserves dignity.
IYKYK

shosta

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  • Senior Member
Cindi, I think you have some ideas mixed up. Libertarianism is about deleting your Facebook and joining a Mastodon server so you can buy loli porn with bitcoin, whereas socialism is fundamentally concerned with supporting the Syrian Baathist party when they need you the most.
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Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
Donald Hughes had a good analysis of libsoc.

https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/1022430771217358848

e: Don't search his name and libertarian socialism on Twitter, though!

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
This reminds me that a few weeks ago I got sucked down a rabbit hole for two hours investigating this YouTube channel belonging to what I believe to be a North Korean dissident advocating for "Juche Capitalism". These videos are all basically audio ripped from random ancap videos online or heavy metal set against completely random background imagery. They're also all terrible except for this one

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shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
"What if instead of a Playboy heiress becoming a bipolar tankie on Twitter, Red Kahina was the daughter of a state official in North Korea who used her very rare internet access to edit bizarre videos of anarcho capitalist Juche syncretism on YouTube?" Fire the writer
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BisMarckie

  • Senior Member
Bire’s law: All discussion on the Bire leads inevitably to the Yugoslav wars.

curly

  • cultural maoist
  • Senior Member
This reminds me that a few weeks ago I got sucked down a rabbit hole for two hours investigating this YouTube channel

can't wait for the nytimes cover story on shosta's radicalization via algorithm

jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
What even counts as the libsoc canon such that we can say that it’s badly theorized? Or is that the point: there is nothing worth putting into a canon?

Rejection or criticism of Bakunin, Proudhon, Kropotkin etc. doesn't come from thin air.
the reverence paid to Marx by marxists specifically for his polemics against the anarchist part of the internationales and/or other left hegelians is one of the most annoying things I see in meaningless internet lefter-than-thou discourse.

There are only two texts that ever made me want to rip my eyes out of my sockets and the second one was the back part of the German ideology after he gets done talking about feuerbach

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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That's the point. :)

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"Google Rob Paul Venezuela Murray Bookchin" is a meme for a reason.
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jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
As for Marx's mountain dew fueled gamer rages, well we all have them. I think it's understandable given  the forums posting taking place between the two of them.
right. all of these guys were up to their eyeballs in bigoted horseshit, some of which was baked into their thought. they deserve no veneration. no writer does.

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no idols, no gods, burn everything
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curly

  • cultural maoist
  • Senior Member
My impression was that Marx was an enormous prick, especially when he was young.

jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Engels and the magyars :doge
im trying to find the piece where he praises American expansion into Mexico in the 1840s. it’s p much the lazy mexican talking point verbatim

I was gonna care post something like ‘going reminder that mid-late 19th century racism was typically worse than the enlightenment’s’ but then I remembered all those pages e.g. Hume and Kant spent shitting on black and brown people. Like, I still think that claim is mostly right, but it’s probably more important to point out the deep, deep damage that the colonial encounter’s done to the moral psychology of everyone -even the people we’d expect would know better.

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
Looking forward to the continued, public debate about free speech rights in the opinion pages of the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, et cetera!

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/deflate-the-rat-labor-board-asks-court-to-stop-union-protest

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I made this exact same post months ago and it was about as prescient as I thought it would be.
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benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Who would quit their day job after reading Kapital? Not even Marx and Engels did that to write and publish everything they ever wrote. :doge

Not to veer away from (my) sociopolitical angst but this had me :dead

I didn't know.John Stossel was on this wave now.

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/1138165329195163649
a little inside baseball, that figure being so specific because it was more or less revealed that one arm of the Foundation did not know the other arm was paying him that much, they thought it was more of a mutual advertising thing because his multi-million dollar Fox Contract would indicate there's no point in paying Stossel that much (also nobody actually watches most of the YouTube videos anyway unless some Democrat-friendly outlet/channel starts "debunking" them)

lets' just say that Nick Gillespe's reason.tv editorialship and Matt Welch's supposed oversight is being re-evaluated and there's a reason KMW is now editor-in-chief over all content and the divide between the magazine, the YouTube content ("reason.tv") and the Foundation's publications no longer exists as it did under those two

the Foundation will still publish separately because it does "studies" as a pseduothinktank but everyone is now listed under the same masthead and some people got voluntarily retired

I have no idea why reason.tv ever existed as a thing and they don't just say it's the fucking YouTube channel

It’s shame libertarian has been so tainted by right libertarians in America that the mere prospect of libertarianism is scoffed by many liberals and the far left when many libertarian principles - personal liberty, personhood, stuff like that - are perfectly compatible. For example, the freedom to choose in relation to abortion. This is a libertarian - and by extension liberal expression. Definitely what happens when libertarians are ran by loons who prize businesses over people. Looking at the left libertarianism as expressed in European channels makes a lot of the principles of libertarian thought readily appealing.  I truly wonder if the left in America could gain more in-roads politically by repackaging libertarian philosophy towards its more European definition. I think the concept of libertarianism (as expressed in the European vein) is identifiably a part of American values.
there are historical reasons for this

Libertarianism in Europe and libertarianism in America were never the same movement except for how they split off of anarchism, European libertarianism hewed closer to anarchism as a movement because of its lack of historical ideological ties across the continent THEN it imported American libertarianism, American libertarianism was steeped in American historicalism, in other words, the American libertarians played off of the American founding doctrines/myths and like most American movements it NEVER imported European changes.

Essentially, "left-libertarianism" never happened in the U.S. and "right-libertarianism" never happened in Europe until the late 20th Century. Original "libertarians" in the United States would mostly not be recognizable* as "right-libertarians" but they are nonetheless highly recognizable American libertarians/anarchists/communists with a stress on the American.

I actually contest the divide more broadly, in fact, I consider the distinct stand you likely identify as "right-libertarianism" to be strongly influenced by Ayn Rand and Objectivism minus the cult part but definitely including the atheist part. This is related to the founding of The Party which was a HUGE thing specific to the American libertarian movement. Karl Hess was once the most famous distinctly American libertarian outside of Ayn Rand. The Party had no interest in him and vice versa no matter how many times everyone, especially Rothbard (the non-Rand father of modern American libertarianism), tried to merge them to work together. Hayek and von Mises were notably critical of conservatism and emphasized the European liberalism they associated with libertarianism, Hayek detested the Party and von Mises considered it a fools errand.

Rothbard, however, was not and his period as unelected head of The Party despite rejecting the Objectivists for the most part in the end resulted in the "conservatarian" alliance that ultimately focused on Pat Buchanan as the libertarian savior. (Much to Ron Paul's displeasure, this is why he left and went back to the Republicans. Yes, I know it makes no sense, but remember these are people and factors other than ideology are involved.) When this utterly failed (and Rothbard admitted it while Rockwell saw the failing as the movement not being racist enough to win over the majority of voters) it spread all over the movement while essentially rendering The Party as a lifeless shell that existed purely to be momentarily seized by whichever faction got enough people to the Convention at any one moment.

The still biggest divide in the movement is and will remain immigration. Pro-life libertarians have shown consistently they will vote for pro-choice libertarians, and vice versa. However anti-immigrant libertarians will not vote for pro-immigration libertarians, they will vote for anti-immigrant conservatives first, and vice versa.

Ironically, Karl Hess was finally won over into The Party by the Pat Buchanan is Awesome and Will Totally Win and Let Us Eliminate The State Plan.

What did die in the United States from the original American libertarians was arguably anarchism of a non-anarcho-capitalist ideal. Mutualism, going off and making your own communes with blackjack and hookers, etc. was utterly rejected for its inability to erode the increasing power of the American State (even though this was never the point) and they mostly just faded away as serious groups. As European libertarianism never actually led to anywhere except small irrelevant groups that can't even found fringe Parties, this never happened and they remained stronger strains of the overall movement. Also Objectivism and Rothbardism landed with heavy duds.

Modern American "left-libertarinism" is arguably nothing worth talking about because there's three strands of which only one looks anything like the European version, the irrelevant academic one that stays true to the originals and yells at people to read their Rose Wilder Lane, the "Libertarian Democrats" and "bleeding heart libertarians" who exist purely to justify reasons to join and vote straight-ticket always for the Democratic Party and support the New Deal/Great Society state while asking that they not war so much, and people who post on C4SS until they get in a dumb fight which apparently requires them to RENOUNCE ANARCHISM AS FLAWED.

This misnamed Radicals for Capitalism actually spends a good chunk on the pre-Party libertarians who were not universally capitalists, it was Rand and the hard turn into The Party that led to the elevation of "capitalism" above anything else in the movement. One might lay that at Rand's feet too as she spent all her life saying she was not a libertarian as libertarians are losers who refuse to seize power and enact Objectivism by force. A bunch of people said "you know, that bitch is right, we need a Political Party!" And so they did and it was really funny for decades on end.

*except that loved creating their own currencies

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I love that libertarianism is marked as a spelling error by browsers while libertarian is not and by love I mean it drives me insane thinking I just spelled everything in the above paragraphs wrong.
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jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Quote
Hayek and von Mises were notably critical of conservatism and emphasized the European liberalism they associated with libertarianism,
im gonna read ‘emphasized’ as ‘made it their life’s work to reanimate after its catastrophic failures in the first half of the 20th century’ if that’s alright with you

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there are two minor :expert folds in this part of the narrative:
1. Interactions with/rejections of Röpke and other ordoliberal approaches on the continent, esp. Germany/Austria
2. For whatever reason (party capture? is that a thing?) most of the leadership/influential figures within the libert movement don’t catch onto the neoclassical synthesis and stick to their Austrian guns. Hayek, because he wasn’t a crank like the rest of them, and was, you know, legit smart, games both sides.
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benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
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emphasized in comparison to American liberalism and conservatism, which I guess makes sense since they're both Europeans

other than a few essays that they never really followed up on, I'm not sure either produced anything after the war worth bothering with, especially not Law, Legislation and Liberty; von Mises essentially had retired after getting to the U.S. and publishing the stuff he was sitting on and then especially published the same resummaries of Socialism, Liberalism and Bureaucracy over and over and over again and his institute seems to think this is totally the best way to achieve praxis :doge

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
Computer, show me the most Jacobin headline in existence.

https://twitter.com/jacobinmag/status/1139156716581478405


BisMarckie

  • Senior Member
Quote
The activists and parliamentarians of the SPD came from modest backgrounds, with little formal education. Their parliament, the Reichstag, stood more for the idea of democracy than its reality, and despite support from a broad swath of the German working class, the party had no influence over the formation of government. Figuratively flipping the building on its head, they transformed the Reichstag into a forum to go toe to toe with the powerful, giving workers a sense of being avenged and providing a model of courage through a canny strategy of political education, media distribution, and biting speeches.

Was this copy&pasted from the “about us“ of the SPD homepage?  :doge

BisMarckie

  • Senior Member
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
(Who has betrayed us? Soical Democrats! just doesn‘t have the same ring to it in English) has been a rallying cry of the left for over a hundred years for a reason.

Rufus

  • 🙈🙉🙊
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Oh! Any stories? :hyper

BisMarckie

  • Senior Member
All the SPD / GDR talk. I forgot to post this from when I went to Germany :doge

(Image removed from quote.)

Looking this up now:
It was a festival with a panel discussion along with an art display and some theatrical plays.

Which means: Some crap only virgin Trotskyists would show up for. :donot

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
(Who has betrayed us? Soical Democrats! just doesn‘t have the same ring to it in English)

This bops, like "essen nicht fressen" tier. 

jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
(Who has betrayed us? Soical Democrats! just doesn‘t have the same ring to it in English) has been a rallying cry of the left for over a hundred years for a reason.
was it limited to the left? or does it get appropriated by right wingers later on in the interwar period?

I’ve seen the whole first season of Babylon Berlin so I consider myself something of an expert on this

Rufus

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Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
(Who has betrayed us? Soical Democrats! just doesn‘t have the same ring to it in English) has been a rallying cry of the left for over a hundred years for a reason.
was it limited to the left? or does it get appropriated by right wingers later on in the interwar period?

I’ve seen the whole first season of Babylon Berlin so I consider myself something of an expert on this

Repopularized by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc-Uwe_Kling about 10 years ago (fuck me, time flies :stahp ). These days it's mostly lefties unhappy with the Schröder and Merkel-coalition SPD.

Lyrics from his version:
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
Es gibt da so 'nen Spruch von den alten Kommunisten
mit dem die 1918 ihre falschen Freunde dissten.
Natürlich ham wa heute 'ne andere politische Lage.
Und trotzdem passt der Spruch irgendwie in uns're Tage.

Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
Wer hat uns verraten? Wer hat uns verkauft?
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
Die ham' uns verraten und die ham' uns auch verkauft.

Ich glaub ich mach 'n Lied daraus mit 'nem Arbeiterkinderchor
Die singen den Refrain dann ihren arbeitlosen Eltern vor.
Es singen schon die Angestellten, die Studenten und die Bauern.
Bald singen sogar die, die noch um Ludwig Ehrhard trauern.

Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
Wer hat uns verraten? Wer hat uns verkauft?
Wer hat uns schlecht beraten? Sozialdemokraten!
Die ham' uns verraten und die ham' uns auch verkauft.


Karl Liebknecht hatte diesen Spruch auf seinem Schreibtisch stehn.
Und er hängt als Poster heut' bei Oskar Lafontaine.
Und auch in Schleswig-Holstein versteht man gut den Sinn
Dort flüsterst's Heide Simonis beim Tango vor sich hin.

Wer hat mich verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
Wer hat mich verraten? Wer hat mich verkauft?
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
Die ham' uns verraten und die ham' uns auch verkauft.

Und die Neuwahl die ham' die ja verloren, damit muss man sich ja befassen
Jetzt kann man endlich aus vollstem Herzen die Regierung wieder hassen.
Ja das Schiff das ist am sinken und die Ratten die flohen sofort.
Doch sie kamen wieder zurück und brachten die schwarze Pest an Bord.

Wer, wer, wer, wer, wer hat uns verraten?
Das war'n doch, sag mal war'n das nicht… Sozialdemokraten.
Das waren die Sozialdemokraten, die ham' uns verraten.
Die ham' uns verraten, die ham' uns verkauft.

Der Sozialstaat und der Sozialismus die sind beide tot.
Übrig sind nur hohle Phrasen und literweise rot.
Und wer steht an ihren Gräbern und hält lächelnd noch die Spaten?
Sagt nichts, lasst mich raten... Sozialdemokraten.
Und das ganze schöne Geld, wer hat's an die Reichen verbraten?
Das waren doch, sag mal waren das nicht... die Sozialdemokraten.

Wer hat uns verraten, wer hat so viel Geld?
Wer hat so viel Pinkepinke, wer hat das bestellt?
Wer, wer, wer, wer, wer hat uns verraten?
Wer, wer, wer, wer, wer hat uns verraten?
Wer, wer, wer, wer, wer hat uns verkauft?
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Google Translate (passable, but full of funky word choices):
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
There's a saying about the old Communists
with whom the 1918 disperse their wrong friends.
Of course, today we have a different political situation.
And yet the saying fits in somehow in our days.

Who betrayed us? Social Democrats!
Who betrayed us? Who sold us?
Who betrayed us? Social Democrats!
The ham 'betrayed us and the ham' s also sold us.

I think I'll make a song out of it with a working-class children's choir
They sing the chorus to their unemployed parents.
The staff, the students and the farmers are singing.
Soon even those who still grieve for Ludwig Ehrhard are singing.

Who betrayed us? Social Democrats!
Who betrayed us? Who sold us?
Who gave us bad advice? Social Democrats!
The ham 'betrayed us and the ham' s also sold us.


Karl Liebknecht had this spell on his desk.
And he hangs as poster today at Oskar Lafontaine.
And also in Schleswig-Holstein one understands well the sense
There, Heide Simonis whispers to himself at the tango.

Who betrayed me? Social Democrats!
Who betrayed me? Who sold me?
Who betrayed us? Social Democrats!
The ham 'betrayed us and the ham' s also sold us.

And the new election, the ham 'yes lost, so you have to deal with yes
Now you can finally hate the government again with all your heart.
Yes, the ship is sinking and the rats fled immediately.
But they came back and brought the black plague on board.

Who, who, who, who, who betrayed us?
That was it, tell me it was not ... Social Democrats.
They were the Social Democrats who betrayed us.
The ham 'betrayed us, the ham' sold us.

The welfare state and socialism are both dead.
All that remains are hollow phrases and gallons of red.
And who stands at their graves and still smiling holds the spade?
Say nothing, let me guess ... Social Democrats.
And all the nice money, who's got it to the rich?
That was it, tell me, that was not ... the Social Democrats.

Who betrayed us, who has so much money?
Who has so much Pinkepinke, who ordered this?
Who, who, who, who, who betrayed us?
Who, who, who, who, who betrayed us?
Who, who, who, who, who sold us?
[close]

Rufus

  • 🙈🙉🙊
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The street art, and public transport were amazing. It's so painful to get a glimpse of what a good system looks like  :-\ . I stayed in friedrichschain, and spent most of my time in kreuzberg and mitte. I don't know if i would visit Berlin again, but I think it might be nice to live there. The people were a little standoffish, but hey, I don't speak german so that's probably on me.
Yet we constantly bitch about public transport. :lol

For what it's worth, the rest of Germany ("we're just being direct") thinks Berliners are rude. Only one I ever met was a cute Vietnamese girl who was very nice, so...

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
I mostly focused on history, I did a walking tour of berlin with the perfect tour guide: a neoliberal israeli who hated the soviets + gdr and loves germany :doge :doge :doge

What's next, the Prime Minister of Israel getting chummy with Vic "I closed a university associated with George Soros" Orban?

BisMarckie

  • Senior Member
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
(Who has betrayed us? Soical Democrats! just doesn‘t have the same ring to it in English) has been a rallying cry of the left for over a hundred years for a reason.
was it limited to the left? or does it get appropriated by right wingers later on in the interwar period?

I’ve seen the whole first season of Babylon Berlin so I consider myself something of an expert on this

Off the top of my head, I couldn’t tell you. I am not aware of it, but the NSDAP and their Strasserist Arbeiterflügel sure could have adopted it.

BisMarckie

  • Senior Member
Btw. IMO Berlin is a trash tier city. If I had to pick cities to live in, Berlin would finish pretty much last.  :doge

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
Just got "SPD" in a captcha on the California Franchise Tax Board website. :hans1

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
mods are asleep, time to benji post itt

Nate's having a normal one:

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1139195893549342720

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
For the Hillary Clinton revanchists.

https://twitter.com/Madonna/status/786105573364359168

VomKriege

  • Do the moron
  • Senior Member
Big ups to my french tour guide suggesting that my s/o and I use our professional talents to start firms in our specialties and hire out the majority of work to people of our same ethnicities back in their respective third world countries "at a fraction of the cost!" to keep ourselves in the black. "You can use your cultural connections to build something"

He was a retired finance guy. P. good Louvre tour though.

You could have left me a tip tho.
ὕβρις

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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Wonder why a longshot nobody in the Democratic Primary gets airtime on CNN to talk about the threat in second / third place. Sure it has nothing to do with him being firmly in the pocket of extractive industries.

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Quote
However, readers should note that Xi offers very little in the way of classical Marxist exegesis to justify his claim that “an economic system in which publicly owned enterprises are the principle part” and the “political system of the National People’s Congress”  are the natural extension of Marxist theory to current world conditions. The claim is asserted more than proven; one suspects he would rather not have the readers of Qiushi thinking too hard about the details of classical Marxist texts.
This forward seems a little biased ::)
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VomKriege

  • Do the moron
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ὕβρις

VomKriege

  • Do the moron
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Many socialists have analyses of fascism that it is capitalism in extreme decay of some sort, wherein the ruling class turn up the boot on the proletariat, borrowing tactics inspired by and reminiscent of imperialism and colonialism. Parenti wrote a whole section of Blackshirts and Reds, Losurdo has similar analysis apparently in Liberalism A Counter History. I have yet to read the latter.

Oh I'm not too baffled by that, I'm familiar with the very rough outline, I just don't necessarily agree but that's not the issue. I'm more dubious of the whole 1933 remarks who at a glance seems to take some hazy lessons of the events then and to project some present considerations from current US politics to German (or European ?) 1933 realities.

There were few Popular Fronts actually achieved in reality, that didn't include Germany (because I assume the "We're in 1933 and there's Nazis" mean that but maybe it's Europe. Doesn't affect the criticism), and quickly the Popular Front were made irrelevant because of collaboration alright but not the one he has in mind. Containing the far right by "class collaboration" with wide party coalition only became a thing fairly recently in Europe so I don't see how it is what put us in the mess. It makes more sense from an US perspective with the rigid bipartism - obligatory big tent approach, but that's pretty specific.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 04:16:17 AM by VomKriege »
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Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
I'm more dubious of the whole 1933 remarks who at a glance seems to take some hazy lessons of the events then and to project some present considerations from current US politics to German (or European ?) 1933 realities.

There were few Popular Fronts actually achieved in reality, that didn't include Germany (because I assume the "We're in 1933 and there's Nazis" mean that but maybe it's Europe. Doesn't affect the criticism), and quickly the Popular Front were made irrelevant because of collaboration alright but not the one he has in mind. Containing the far right by "class collaboration" with wide party coalition only became a thing fairly recently in Europe so I don't see how it is what put us in the mess. It make more sense from an US perspective with the rigid bipartism - obligatory big tent approach, but that's pretty specific.

"I wanna do a historical analogy here, with the proviso that 99% of historical analogies are bullshit, right? . . . But 1% are good, the ones that are developed by Friedrich Engels, and, myself." -Matt Karp, AKP 50th Episode Ergenekon

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I was saving this quote as an epigraph for a lengthy reply to Esch's post about us being sacks of potatoes but I don't have lengthy politics posts in me atm. :stahp
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Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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curly

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https://twitter.com/sunraysunray/status/1139986777823948803

lmao Sunkara has only gotten his small degree of notoriety by appealing to the mores of the media and wonk crowd. Building socialism one Vox profile at a time : :like

VomKriege

  • Do the moron
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Since we have some Marxist alumni, what's the TLDR on the upcoming Green transition ? Because I would imagine it could classify as factoring in a mutation of the mode of production alongside automation. It strikes me as a global enough issue and it's certainly a material imperative.

It's not entering disconnect from the preceding discussion because as far as Europe is concerned it's pretty clear that the usual leftist talking points (labor conditions, material well being of the workers) is not cutting it anymore regardless of its merits and especially so with the "workers" (or how you want to classify its supposed natural demographic base). My layman impression is that the response to this in Europe is to argue that it the left is inhibited in what it can offer because of the EU but Euroskeptic Left parties are not really making any more inroads despite offering that and that more voters prefer the far right version of that argument. That might be because the left has to reconcile this with its own baked in globalism / internationalism calling. Whatever it may be, it's clear the ecological concerns are a rising force in politics that will flow in all of the political spectrum. Current Green parties are clearly on the left but it's probably not an inherent, immobile essence as far ecology is concerned. It is starting to get urgent to anchor it on the left to unify the vote. Well at least that's how I feel with my coffee and cigarettes.
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shosta

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Yesterday I was looking into the specifics of Hong Kong's governance and I found out that the seats in the legislature are evenly split between Geographical Constituencies, which is your normal popularly elected representative, and so-called Functional Constituencies, which are seats awarded to special interest groups, most of which are industry. The corporations get to directly vote, and they get HALF THE SEATS. That's absolutely amazing.
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Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
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.
I felt like I was out of my fuckin mind looking at pictures of protesters waving the british flag last week
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Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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Been keeping quiet about the Hong Kong thing because I support the right of nations to pursue socialism by different paths that are dictated by the conditions in those countries. However, I did let out a knowing chuckle when I read an Anti-Beijing Camp guy say that allowing Hong Kongers to be extradited for doing crimes would impede the business climate in Hong Kong.

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Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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Some of these are really great though.

(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

 :dead Chinese colonists get out !! :dead

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Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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^dildos bring joy to people of all stripes, the only people Chuck Schumer brings joy to are the ones on Wall Street

Anyway:



*looks at The Bore's Chernobyl thread*

 :hitler

 :kermit

Kara

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Not my hot take, but I'm looking forward to the prestige TV show about Union Carbide in India.

Anyway, I was posting to highlight the first dependent clause and not the second one. There are only so many threads that can be sidetracked with communist plots before you become #problematic.

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VomKriege

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Anyone got any good resources on the transition to feudalism from 'slave society'? thanks :gopnik

I read The Origins of Family already.

ed: it doesn't even have to be marxist specifically, any resource on the origins of feudal society would be cool

A number of prominent French historians had numerous works on middle ages and feudalism in France. Duby and Le Goff for instance, I've read one book by both IIRC. Don't know how well it was translated in English.
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BisMarckie

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Anyone got any good resources on the transition to feudalism from 'slave society'? thanks :gopnik

I read The Origins of Family already.

ed: it doesn't even have to be marxist specifically, any resource on the origins of feudal society would be cool

A number of prominent French historians had numerous works on middle ages and feudalism in France. Duby and Le Goff for instance, I've read one book by both IIRC. Don't know how well it was translated in English.

Speaking of French historians: Marc Bloch wrote a monograph about Feudalism is well. :trumps
Bloch is always worth reading, even though I am sure some of his claims will be outdated by now.