Author Topic: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.  (Read 289417 times)

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Kara

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*adjusting some tchotchke on a TIE Advanced flight stick* the dad energy is strong with this one

Mandark

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"Centrists use woke identity politics to undercut real material leftism" only makes sense if the 2016 Democratic presidential primary (as experienced through Twitter) is literally your only reference point in American politics.

The DLC was pushing Dem politicians to stand up to black leaders "special interest groups" at the same time it was supporting means testing, work requirements, etc. Look at Jesse Jackson's platform in 1988. Hell, the early favorite among centrist Dems this cycle is Joe fucking Biden, who also was the first to have a major attack along racial justice lines.

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I know this post is limited to electoral/party politics, but it's in the context of someone arguing for the radical socialist change of Bernie Sanders so I think I'm okay here.
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curly

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fave dumb amber take? mine was that China's internet policy is good

'online leftism is bad and you should all log off' - person who sustains herself from extremely online leftism


anyway, i think we should respond to her arguments with examples of why she's wrong rather than call her a nazbol. her insistence that anti-idpol left movements are the way to go in the imperial core don't seem to hold water from what i can see. the cpgb-ml dropped 'woke idpol leftism' and they're a joke to everyone now. historically, lots of people have come to leftism through struggles with other social issues; some obvious examples being the black panthers or ho chi minh. if focusing exclusively on the rural white peasant class is the most effective strat possible, why is the DSA poppin' and not Redneck Revolt? Why is she in the DSA longterm then, which is at face value a Bernie Sanders (social democracy) movement?

Yeah the main argument Amber and the 'anti-woke' left seem to make is that in order for the DSA to expand beyond their current base of white millennial gentrifiers they need to adopt the mores of the proles and tack right on social issues in order to appeal to the broad center of the working class, but I don't buy that the coalition they imagine is possible, especially in the US of all countries. You can't sidestep racial issues in a settler colonial society, and the people most open to some form of radical break towards egalitarianism are not coincidentally the ones from ethnic minorities.

"Centrists use woke identity politics to undercut real material leftism" only makes sense if the 2016 Democratic presidential primary (as experienced through Twitter) is literally your only reference point in American politics.

The DLC was pushing Dem politicians to stand up to black leaders "special interest groups" at the same time it was supporting means testing, work requirements, etc. Look at Jesse Jackson's platform in 1988. Hell, the early favorite among centrist Dems this cycle is Joe fucking Biden, who also was the first to have a major attack along racial justice lines.

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I know this post is limited to electoral/party politics, but it's in the context of someone arguing for the radical socialist change of Bernie Sanders so I think I'm okay here.
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The left is as traumatized by the 2016 primary as the most fervent Clinton revanchist.

Mandark

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A heuristic I've found useful is when someone says the left/liberals/Dems should make concessions and meet the people where they are on issue X, that person probably doesn't care about issue X or lowkey agrees with the right wing position on issue X.

Our own Optimus (pbuh) said the left needed to drop the PC bullshit because it turned off voters, then gradually revealed that he had Some Thoughts on Muslim immigration, racial IQ gaps, false rape accusations, etc.

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Mandark

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Him getting banned at the same time as Assimilate was like when Farrah Fawcett died on the same day as Michael Jackson.

Kara

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If we look at societies that had successful proletarian revolutions they didn't exactly resolve all their racial and national contradictions after the fact...It's so obvious that I have to raise an eyebrow when that comes out of the mouth of someone who has voiced support for USSR/PRC before. The insistence on viewing these issues as purely a result of liberal society is an absurd claim.

Base and superstructure are rather fundamental Marxist concepts but for whatever reason they have dropped so far out of the discourse in the Anglophone world that anti-identity politics is an actual thing that exists in socialist spaces and jakefromstatefarm's recent posting about historiography was (to be uncharitable and mean-spirited) essentially waving a big book that says "culture is important too" so the academy (aKKKademy?) is clearly no better either.

Or to just give everyone the simpler version:

https://twitter.com/DanjoKaz00ie/status/1128375171276996609

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"These guys who slap barcodes on everything really seem like they would oppose classifying and categorizing people on the basis of gender or race." -not my joke
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jakefromstatefarm

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Him getting banned at the same time as Assimilate was like when Farrah Fawcett died on the same day as Michael Jackson.
on this score, I think the :social crowd is just comprehensively right: the two of them were fueled by the same white (male) resentment, and this is what always held priority for them, tacit or not, no matter how or through what it got refracted

Kara

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To just add to my earlier thoughts: I don't think it's prima facie ridiculous to claim social issues occupy a place in the debate (TM) that's out of sync with material conditions; however, the anti-identity politics crowd tends to not proffer nuanced arguments such as, "The boundaries of what's possible in the economic space have narrowed so acutely over the last 40 years that the only avenue left in which to perform class struggle is the cultural and personal. If we expand those boundaries we can see what happens with any extant excesses." Instead we are asked to jettison all struggles that are not obviously economic on the front end which, speaking as a member of the most oppressed class in society (small business owners), is just a ruse.

curly

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(Image removed from quote.)

Using my detailed knowledge of the Brooklyn podcast community to parse the significance of this tweet and its later deletion.

jakefromstatefarm

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and jakefromstatefarm's recent posting about historiography was (to be uncharitable and mean-spirited) essentially waving a big book that says "culture is important too"
this motherfucker always playing me for a mark to get me to show my hand :rage

If your beef is with the akkkademy, all well and good, all I’d say is that the cultural turn was a net positive because it swept aside a lot of garbage materialist accounts and actually contributed to a return to Marx of sorts (‘read Marx, not marxists’ is a thing). No numbers on this, but I’d hazard to guess most explanations in the social sciences are broadly physicalist, though obv not in orthodox Marxist terms. The ones that do let non-physical objects/process into the picture always do so while incorporating it with a physical account of institutions/networks/whatever. And that incorporation happens more or less well; these guys usually aren’t philosophically inclined, they’re data crunchers trying to fit data to narratives.

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if your beef is with me* then what follows is a care post I’ve had in me for a while re: idealism & materialism that most will respond with :no1curr and the rest wont be convinced by.

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first, let me lay out what I do not claim:
  • that mental activity is in some sense -ontologically, causally, explanitorally- prior to physical activity
  • that a sufficient account of any kind or degree of social phenomena can be given exclusively in terms of mental activity
  • that mental or discursive or rational activity is wholly unbound from conditions that immediately precede and circumscribe it

What I do hold is that, nonetheless, these commitments don’t undermine the desirability of an integrated mental/physical approach. One where they both have causal roles to play at the macro + micro level.^^ The most obvious point I can think at which this clashes with Marx is wrt normativity. He’s notoriously ambiguous on this point but, if you’ll allow me to do a little violence, an at least common reading is one which sees him as setting out a descriptive science that unmasks received, common-sense norms like ‘rights’ or ‘justice’ as discursive tools that legitimate disproportionate distributions of wealth/power. The only real true moral north is freedom, and the liberatory goal is to reach a point where politics isn’t possible anymore. Now, I don’t think this is even close to the most plausible reading of the man himself, but something like it definitely animates most baby marxists (along with a bunch of other shit, don’t get me started) -and this is part of why I think the shearing away of Marxist approaches since the 70s^ was mostly a good thing. The ability/language that allows us to acknowledge when unjust** material conditions are being covered over by norms/mores/values/whatever is a good thing, and one for which we’re largely indebted to Marx. The view that norms/mores/values always or even just mostly do that is fucking crazy and incoherent.

For what it’s worth, ‘culture’ is probably my least favorite word and one that I’d actually eliminate entirely on account of its slipperiness.

^^ I’ve always thought of marx’s base-superstructure as analogous to supervenience in the phil of mind, and if that’s the case, then it’ll run into the same problems supervenience does.
^totally willing to admit there was some Kuhnian loss here, too
**again, because of immanent critique, i can’t even use this term to describe what I’m trying to get at
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*i know it isn’t, but far be it from me to miss an opportunity :snob
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benjipwns

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Donald Trump fudged, obfuscated or flat out just changed his position from as little as a year prior and still sat outside the Republican mainstream overall on "identity politics" issues. But on the things that turned out to matter most with the base and eventually his electorate, namely immigration and trade, he was actually more in line with them than the Party Elite.

The answer in electoral politics is never to dismiss an issue and then explain to the person how the REAL answer is what you've been saying all along. It's to agree with the person 100% and then explain to the person how your plan actually does all that. If that means that sometimes you gotta promise trans women that they can have abortions on national TV, so be it.

As Mandark noted, there's some kind of REAL lesson here about spending decades attacking "interest groups" as not counting, only the overall morass, especially when your party is constructed of a coalition of interest groups where the cleavages don't neatly fit like the infamous three-legged stool.

Wikipedia's summary of Jackson's platform in 1984 (it was slightly tweaked for 1988):
Quote
creating a Works Progress Administration-style program to rebuild America's infrastructure and provide jobs to all Americans,
reprioritizing the War on Drugs to focus less on mandatory minimum sentences for drug users (which he views as racially biased) and more on harsher punishments for money-laundering bankers and others who are part of the "supply" end of "supply and demand"
reversing Reaganomics-inspired tax cuts for the richest ten percent of Americans and using the money to finance social welfare programs
cutting the budget of the Department of Defense by as much as fifteen percent over the course of his administration
declaring Apartheid-era South Africa to be a rogue nation
instituting an immediate nuclear freeze and beginning disarmament negotiations with the Soviet Union
giving reparations to descendants of black slaves
supporting family farmers by reviving many of FDR's New Deal-era farm programs
creating a single-payer system of universal health care
ratifying the Equal Rights Amendment
increasing federal funding for lower-level public education and providing free community college to all
applying stricter enforcement of the Voting Rights Act and
supporting the formation of a Palestinian state.
Jackson 1984 campaign brochure: http://www.4president.org/brochures/1984/jessejackson1984brochure.htm
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 02:03:44 AM by benjipwns »

benjipwns

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speaking of Clinton's and Democratic primaries

in 1996, much like Bernard in 2012 musing that someone should challenge Obama, there was a push to challenge Clinton from the left, initially they tried to get Jesse:
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Anyone+left%3F+The+search+for+a+Clinton+challenger+in+1996.-a016914424
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If Jackson should opt out, attention would likely turn to Ralph Nader. The consumer advocate remains one of the most identifiable and respected figures in American public affairs, and he has been among the most vocal critics of Clinton, particularly on issues such as NAFTA and GATT.

"Basically Clinton follows the power of the global corporations, who are his masters," Nader said last fall during the GATT debate.

Nader has said he believes Clinton is "certain" to face some sort of progressive challenge--most likely in the November election--and adds that he would probably support such a challenge. But when asked if he would be the candidate, Nader says no

...

"It's like the movie Field of Dreams," says Elsis. "If we want Jerry Brown to be President, we can do it."

Progressives around the country mention other potential candidates as well--including Representative Bernie Sanders, the Vermont socialist who is the only independent member of the House, and Representative Ron Dellums, California Democrat.

There have also been suggestions that a "left personality," such as writer Barbara Ehrenreich, might be a strong candidate--much as Buchanan has parlayed his position as a columnist and television pundit into two Presidential runs. Ehrenreich, a respected author and columnist, and one of the original members of Democratic Socialists of America, could have a ready-made base of support.

Some progressive activists around the country say they are less concerned about who the candidate is than they are about the prospect that any challenge to Clinton might pull the President to the left.
Warren Beatty tried to talk to Jesse's people about helping him to run in 2000 against Gore and Bradley, this was after Bulworth came out

VomKriege

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The ideological struggle over HK in that thread is too real. :lol :dead
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Tripon

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Kara

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https://twitter.com/RappGabriel/status/1147254695058010112

If you ever want to get depressed (and read something the "fuck yeah, science!" crowd will always keep on the down-low, if they even know about it) you (pejorative) should try Googling Ron Paul Ignaz Semmelweis sometime.

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benjipwns

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oh no, the labels... he knows

Kara

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Kara

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I would also ask how many countries in the periphery or semi-periphery aren't reliant on remittances, but I also wield that criticism like a cudgel to dismiss the "horizontal" economy of SFRY so I'm probably inconsistent in my analysis.

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:nope Being dependent on remittances in a multipolar world.

 :idont Being dependent on remittances in a unipolar neoliberal world.
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Kara

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Kara

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The Polish expat community in California is relatively young (in the sense that they all immigrated between World War II to 1989 as opposed to Austrian Galicia being Austrian Galicia) and sooo many of them are STEM types who were educated in Polska Ludowa and came here to complain about how awful it was even though it equipped them to rapidly rise to the top of the settler labor aristocracy while their children are for the most part failsons and daughters (myself included). :lol

BisMarckie

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As someone who fled from there with his family and left everything behind, let's just say I disagree strongly with your whitewashing of the Polish totalitarian state...

Kara

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Mine fled it too, well Kresy Wschodnie to be more precise.

BisMarckie

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Mine fled it too, well Kresy Wschodnie to be more precise.

My dad, who is an ethnic pole, refused to step foot on Polish soil for over 20 years.Funnily enough my mom who is ethnically German, which was one of the main reasons they couldn't endure living in Poland anymore, convinced him to go back to see his family again. Now they go there every year. :trumps

Flannel Boy

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These days, I don't think many Poles are pining for the Polish People's Republic:


Mine fled it too, well Kresy Wschodnie to be more precise.

That is where all four of my grandparents were from. My maternal grandfather lived just outside of Lwow (Lviv). He lost everything (his estate, mill, family artefacts) and a mob of Ukrainians killed his sister. Fun times.


benjipwns

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didn't know we had so many CDPR employees on here

Kara

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My dad, who is an ethnic pole, refused to step foot on Polish soil for over 20 years.Funnily enough my mom who is ethnically German, which was one of the main reasons they couldn't endure living in Poland anymore, convinced him to go back to see his family again. Now they go there every year. :trumps

My great uncle was killed at Katyn so no one wisely went back until 1989 or so. My grandfather got too ill to travel shortly after my sibling was born so aside from some visits from his ex-wife (who'd stayed there) he only went back 2 or 3 times in his life. When he died we imported dirt to bury him in though. :godłocry:

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It's kind of surreal to learn about your family from memorials instead of from your family.
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That is where all four of my grandparents were from. My maternal grandfather lived just outside of Lwow (Lviv). He lost everything (his estate, mill, family artefacts) and a mob of Ukrainians killed his sister. Fun times.

Mine was from the Łodz area but fled east for obvious reasons in 1939. Fun times would be an accurate way to sum up life in the Old World, yeah.

VomKriege

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didn't know we had so many CDPR employees on here

 :polandcry
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VomKriege

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cheers!
https://twitter.com/katrinagulliver/status/1148934064990236672

He assumed it was about this because written by Tolstoï... Who died in 1910 ?

 :neogaf
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Kara

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Maybe he mixed him up with Alexei Tolstoi. :expert

Great Rumbler

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https://twitter.com/Trillburne/status/1149018789411008517

This is what causes people to think Tolstoy wrote about the Communist Revolution.
dog

Kara

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toku / jake / anyone else who enjoys hate-parsing deus vult shit: the citations needed guys did a look at our favorite topic

https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/episode-82-western-civilization-and-white-supremacy-the-right-wing-co-option-of-antiquity


save western civilization :lawd

Listened to the first 20 minutes... some really rancid audio clips. (Because I'm not a Kulturkampfer I've never actually listened to the Ur-Dragon Wank Dad for more than bite sized chunks.)

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benjipwns

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Also the understanding of 'judeo-christian' as a selective white nationalist ethnic bloc rather than an anti-islamic ideological bloc is new to me. I strongly associate white nationalism of any stripe with antisemitism, would be interested in seeing a more academic breakdown of this.
Israel.

And I don't mean that in a snarky way about Israeli policies or anything but the whole Western relationship with Israel during a time when Nazism's relationship with Jews was still a big no no even in extremist circles led to a sort of "Good Jew" exception that eventually made its way backwards to Jesus to help write a new canon of Western Civilization.

The now forgotten Dark Enlightenment wing of the wank dad was trying to figure out how much of this exception to roll back when they kinda got shoved out of the spotlight for the new "alt-right" intellectuals like Jordan Peterson, Sargon of England, etc.

benjipwns

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I can't remember the name of it now, but there was an European literal neo-Nazi group (in I want to say Hungary) where the leadership went on to expel a huge chunk of members because they were being too openly anti-Semetic during their violent demonstrations.

Golden Dawn did something similar during their brief period flirting with becoming a legitimate political party.

Kara

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This is about as bad as when you said Trump was reflexively anti-war.

Kara

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thank you kara for being able to wade through the cancer that I posted and still find it in your heart to like the post :dead

 :isthis Is this art?

-me reading that post

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Years of subscribing to that magazine finally paying off. :win
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benjipwns

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This is about as bad as when you said Trump was reflexively anti-war.
And yet the globe is currently at peace in perfect harmony.

Curious.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 08:16:31 PM by benjipwns »

Kara

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You made me click on this thread again for a one word edit that makes your post more obviously reference the webcomic that makes the free speech KKKorner thread mad.

 :rage :rage :rage

benjipwns

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Those who participate in blatantly Mandarking deserve no safety.

Kara

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Likening Mandark to me is so insulting to him that I'm reporting my first post on The Bore.

TVC15

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Likening Mandark to me is so insulting to him that I'm reporting my first post on The Bore.

Ah, yes, the only thing lower than a coward is a snitch.
serge

Kara

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At least I'm not a scab. :bolo

benjipwns

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I knew that it would always be you who would sic the authorities on me. I don't love you any less. This was how our tragic affair was eventually meant to end.

Mandark

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I'd rat you all out to the mods, but the only posts I report are my own when they don't get enough likes.


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amphetamines  :rejoice
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Kara

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I don't plan on ever experiencing paternal pride, but I'm going to go ahead and feel it for my 2 sons rn. :mjcry

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Maybe this would have been a better emoticon to use? :juche
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look like a group of vidya journalists with ilhan
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benjipwns

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you could fit like three of her in that one guy

Kara

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https://getpocket.com/explore/item/secret-life-of-the-professor-who-lives-with-nazis

:dead of course this story opens in Orange County, California

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mein reich :goty2
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Tripon

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https://getpocket.com/explore/item/secret-life-of-the-professor-who-lives-with-nazis

:dead of course this story opens in Orange County, California

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mein reich :goty2
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Hah, of course it's Chapman University. AKA, private Christian College with $35K per semester tuition.

Crash Dummy

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Quote
International Trade Liberalization and Domestic Institutional Reform: Effects of WTO Accession on Chinese Internal Migration Policy

Economic institutions that impede factor mobility become more costly when an economy experiences substantial transitions such as trade liberalization. I study how trade triggers changes
in labor institutions that regulate internal migration in the context of China’s Hukou system.
Using a newly-collected dataset on prefecture-level migration policies, I document an increase
in pro-migrant regulations following WTO entry and estimate the impact of prefecture-level
trade shocks on migration regulations from 2001 to 2007. I find that regions facing more export
market liberalization enacted more migrant-friendly regulations. I also find evidence that these
regulation changes amplified the effects of trade liberalization on internal migration.

i'm bored at work so reading this, feel free to join me http://www.tianyuanecon.com/uploads/1/1/0/7/110705287/submission_yt.pdf

Kara

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jakefromstatefarm and benji circa 2015 vindicated. :ussrcry

https://twitter.com/communoah/status/1150233321416396800

Kara

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These are the dumb struggle sessions I live for :lawd