Author Topic: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2  (Read 35656 times)

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #240 on: March 22, 2019, 01:36:16 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

:trumps
(Image removed from quote.)

 :smug

Anyhow this is all part of more impressive cloud solutions running with the widespread availability of 5G in mind.
Google has all the tech ready when 5G becomes the norm in 2-3 years.

(Image removed from quote.)

:bolo

I have 60 ms to Belgium

(Checked on phone over wifi)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 01:48:17 AM by Premium Lager »

Momo

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thisismyusername

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #242 on: March 22, 2019, 02:24:44 AM »
Europoors thinking their ping is going to matter with shit non-NAS streaming. What else is new.

@GreatSage: I don't think most folks will want to play with the terrible input lag. You couldn't play fighting games, or shooters (a big gaming segment there) on it, due to lag time between the input to the server and the server's response/showing reaction in twitch shooters like Quake, for instance. Some may adjust, and have no problem, but I really think a large majority will have a problem. Just like VR had a certain segment that had no problems, problems, and those that couldn't care about VR in the first place.

bluemax

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #243 on: March 22, 2019, 02:53:23 AM »
People have been working on making this tech real in various forms for a decade, and I guess if anyone in the current climate could do it, it would be Google.

On the other hand, Google is not the company I would want in charge of this, because they'll either kill it prematurely or use it for some nefarious purpose.
Hey there, Mr. Bluemax. Using http instead of https will unfuck your avatar. Tyvm. :heart

Doubtful, given that my avatar url is set to a file I hosted on my student web space as a college student some 14 years ago. That probably explains how Konami lawyers found me all those years ago.
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GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #244 on: March 22, 2019, 04:31:23 AM »
@GreatSage: I don't think most folks will want to play with the terrible input lag. You couldn't play fighting games, or shooters (a big gaming segment there) on it, due to lag time between the input to the server and the server's response/showing reaction in twitch shooters like Quake, for instance. Some may adjust, and have no problem, but I really think a large majority will have a problem. Just like VR had a certain segment that had no problems, problems, and those that couldn't care about VR in the first place.

Having seen numerous arguments on self proclaimed hardcore gamer forums on many occasions on many different topics such as that controllers are just as good as kb+m for FPS games, that 30fps is just as good as 60fps because the human eye can't even see above 30fps anyway, that p2p networking is just as good as dedicated servers and that theres no such thing as host advantage, or that PS4 remote play to a Vita is just as good as the WiiUs bespoke high bandwidth low latency streaming solution...
I think you'll find out 'just as good' is fairly flexible in definition. To the point where 'just as good' means whatever is on offer.

Occam

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #245 on: March 22, 2019, 04:35:22 AM »
Unless time travel is invented or they build processing centers close to every single house, this can't work for quick reaction games like it does on home consoles. Light speed is a thing, and the data needs to travel back and forth (controller input). Every junction adds lag, as does your display. Sure, you can create games that basically play themselves, but what's the point? Might as well just watch YouTube then.
Also, fuck not owning anything.
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kingv

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #246 on: March 22, 2019, 04:53:43 AM »
Those input lag videos do not look great to me.

Occam

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #247 on: March 22, 2019, 09:25:47 AM »
I have no idea if it will be successful; certain types of games that don't require precisely timed interactions can work streamed. However, given those limitations, it's not a replacement for local systems.

Is there any information available how well PlayStation Now is doing for Sony?
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Svejk

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #248 on: March 22, 2019, 09:33:09 AM »
I mean... if Lougle moneyhatted the fuck outta CDPR and made Cyberpunk 2077 exclusive to this, I would insta get...  but we all know that that's not happening, right?..

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #249 on: March 22, 2019, 02:11:22 PM »
You guys actually think input lag, games completely pausing for a second and coming back and your character is dead, etc. are only things hardcore gamers will care about?

And you think non-hardcore gamers want to subscribe to a gaming service that probably won't be cheap?

All of these "you hardcore gamers aren't thinking about THIS" argument are things that have been discussed ad nauseum.

Catch 22's.  Hardcore gamers are going to care about even optimal input lag situations, non-hardcore probably won't want to pay for this shit because it's a pipe dream to think it will be cheap.

Even under optimal conditions people notice the extra input lag;  that's not even just anectdotal, it's from people like Microsoft doing studies.  Well guess who won't have optimal conditions?  Most people.. in most places.. and while it can get better, it can never be perfect, and we'll never not have glitches / latency spikes, it's the nature of the internet.  It happens even between 2 nodes on Azure / AWS / GCP let alone between someone's home internet or cell phone and Azure / AWS / GCP.  And it'll be frustrating as hell, every time it happens..

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #250 on: March 22, 2019, 02:15:02 PM »
If you think the average person won't recognize when their controls aren't responsive I don't know what to tell you.
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riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #251 on: March 22, 2019, 02:21:22 PM »
I have no idea if it will be successful; certain types of games that don't require precisely timed interactions can work streamed. However, given those limitations, it's not a replacement for local systems.

Is there any information available how well PlayStation Now is doing for Sony?

Sony has never said a word about Now from a financial perspective.

But what they have done is remove clients from multiple devices (TV's, Vita, etc.), and added a download option for anyone using a system that can play the game they "own a license to" on Now.  Both of these things have the effect of streaming LESS games, not more games.

It's the other thing nobody really talks about;  is this actually going to work out for the businesses?  What is the price for profitability?  We have MS and Sony jumping in but they are cloud providers and can take a bigger risk with less blowback if game streaming doesn't actually make mega-bucks for them.    And they don't really control every aspect of this either way, they will depend on game publishers to actually provide content, and if they can't pay enough money for it.. they won't get it.  Publishers currently selling millions of copies of games at $60-100 a pop.

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #252 on: March 22, 2019, 02:22:04 PM »
If you think the average person won't recognize when their controls aren't responsive I don't know what to tell you.

The average person thinks NBA 2K is smooth and responsive

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #253 on: March 22, 2019, 02:32:59 PM »
If you think the average person won't recognize when their controls aren't responsive I don't know what to tell you.

The average person thinks NBA 2K is smooth and responsive

Add 10-100ms response time and see what they think.

Add the occasional 1-2 second or more glitch and see what they think. 

Game streaming can never be as responsive as local compute, can never be as reliable as it.   People really shouldn't just judge this tech under optimal conditions.  There are so many variables.

I mean the tech is cool as shit;  I remember trying OnLive out in 2009 or whatever, and was pretty amazed by it.   Beyond the fact that "it actually worked" there's some awesome ideas behind playing games rendered on a server.   But play with this shit for more than a few hours, and have a few frustrating moments, and it starts to grind at you.   You won't even really know for sure if what happened in the game was because you fucked up, or if input lag got to you.   I played an Arkham game on OnLive and it felt pretty awesome, but occasinoally it felt like my combos should have landed, or my timed blocks should have worked when they didn't.  For all I know it was because I fucked up, but my brain couldn't help but wonder if it was the lag fucking me.  And then my home wirelss glitched out for a few seconds and I said "fuck this."   I also had a 15ms ping to their Santa Clara server.. and not much else has really changed tech wise since then (other than expectations being higher for rez/FPS.)

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #254 on: March 22, 2019, 02:38:36 PM »
Oh and GreatSage;  I've had a lot of Rockband partys at my house with people who've never played a shooter and aren remotely "gamers" and they notice when the game needs to be re-callibrated.  I really can't fathom how you think they wouldn't;  this isn't audio or video quality.  People also notice when they drive an old car with weird loose steering, it's not a gaming or tech thing, it's how people's brains work.  You do something and your brain expects a response, and when that response doesn't happen it is disorienting. 

And again, every word you say about this appears to be about optimal conditions, constant solid latency... that's not how the internet works.. that's not even how people's routers work in their homes.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #255 on: March 22, 2019, 03:08:38 PM »
Poosy;  can throw insults around at anyone who thinks game streaming won't take off but can't respond to any detailed reasons why.

Shocking.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #256 on: March 22, 2019, 03:36:56 PM »
NAH LETS FIGHT!

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #257 on: March 22, 2019, 05:18:31 PM »
it is genuinely hilarious that some of you think that physical media is here to stay for the most tech-obsessed corner of the entertainment industry. you seriously think so bullshit like resolution or a slight input delay is going to stop a gaming delivery method that anyone involved in game distribution (outside nintendo ofc) has been working on for over a decade? as has been stated many times in this thread, finding a baseline of "good enough" will be enough to get this thing going, and those existing problems will be worked on in the coming years. physical media in any form will be for collectors only soon enough and it's silly to think that gaming would somehow be exempt.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #258 on: March 22, 2019, 05:22:54 PM »
Who said anything about physical media?  lol

Digital downloads have the exact same advantage to publishers as streaming for the most part, and are currently doing really well at full retail prices.   

Streaming is an attempt to reach more people than the ones willing to buy console hardware;  that's literally it.. this idea that it's guaranteed to work is nonsense.  It wouldn't be the first or last technology to not make it into the mainstream.

And it would be nice if one of you chucklefucks would address the fact that it's not merely a "slight input delay";  that's the absolute best case scenario. 

Chooky

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #259 on: March 22, 2019, 05:40:44 PM »
ah man well i guess that's it then. the tech isn't good enough outside major cities right now and it will clearly never ever improve. nice try google but it looks like we'll be sticking solely with 100gb+ downloads for the next 10 years.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #260 on: March 22, 2019, 05:50:17 PM »
Latency spiked can happen inside of a datacenter, let alone in major cities near a data center.

A tech that requies a constant perfect internet connections at all times is not going to be perfect for anyone.

I am literally typing this message while remoted into an Azure VM, and in the midst of typing it, despite my typical 10ms ping to the server, my typing stalled out.   This happens to me a dozen times a day, along with 1 or 2 disconnects.   And I'm on a gigabit fiber connection.   It's conceptually very similar to game streaming.

I mean shit, everyone here has played MP games and knows that shit will go wonky during any gaming session of decent length a few times;  now imagine that causing you to die in a single player game.

kingv

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #261 on: March 22, 2019, 06:21:17 PM »
ah man well i guess that's it then. the tech isn't good enough outside major cities right now and it will clearly never ever improve. nice try google but it looks like we'll be sticking solely with 100gb+ downloads for the next 10 years.

Streaming 4K will actually be downloading more than 100GB for pretty much any game you play for more than 6-8 hours.

There will be some games that will be absolutely unplayable on this.

Try to play Parappa the Rapper on PS4. Itís completely trash even with just the lag from modern TVs and wireless controllers. Itís almost unplayable and absolutely not fun. I canít imagine it being even worse.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #262 on: March 22, 2019, 06:29:26 PM »
Google said 4k/60 will use about 3GB per hour;  so it will take a while to match what a game download would require.

Occam

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #263 on: March 22, 2019, 07:40:21 PM »
Best case scenario seems to be 166ms lag. That's 5 frames for games running at 30fps, and 10 for games running at 60. This absolutely makes games like 2D shooters and platformers unplayable.
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GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #264 on: March 22, 2019, 07:42:13 PM »
And it would be nice if one of you chucklefucks would address the fact that it's not merely a "slight input delay";  that's the absolute best case scenario.

Whats to address?
Wireless controllers add input latency, doesn't stop most people using wireless controllers.
P2P servers add input latency to everyone whos not the host, doesn't stop most console online games being P2P.
Smart TV processing effects add input latency, doesn't stop most people having 'Game Mode' enabled and not turning that off.
Post-processing visual effects in all modern deferred rendering systems adds input latency, doesn't stop most games having a ton of post processing effects like DoF / Bloom / AO / AA being enabled by default.
Targetting 30fps adds input latency over targetting 60fps, doesn't stop most titles targetting fancy over smooth.
Making games animation driven rather than input driven adds input latecny while you watch an animation finish before inputs are registered, doesn't stop basically all western developed games doing that.

I don't get why you're adamant this is the line the average consumer will draw and refuse to compromise on.
People have played games that are entirely server based since Everquest. People played high input precision titles like Quake on a fucking 56k modem with 200+ ping.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #265 on: March 22, 2019, 07:58:34 PM »
And it would be nice if one of you chucklefucks would address the fact that it's not merely a "slight input delay";  that's the absolute best case scenario.

Whats to address?
Wireless controllers add input latency, doesn't stop most people using wireless controllers.
P2P servers add input latency to everyone whos not the host, doesn't stop most console online games being P2P.
Smart TV processing effects add input latency, doesn't stop most people having 'Game Mode' enabled and not turning that off.
Post-processing visual effects in all modern deferred rendering systems adds input latency, doesn't stop most games having a ton of post processing effects like DoF / Bloom / AO / AA being enabled by default.
Targetting 30fps adds input latency over targetting 60fps, doesn't stop most titles targetting fancy over smooth.
Making games animation driven rather than input driven adds input latecny while you watch an animation finish before inputs are registered, doesn't stop basically all western developed games doing that.

None of these things introduce input lag that can spike or change over time during single player games, or are wildly different between different people.  Controllers, TV and monitor settings, and the input lag created by the game itself are all tested for, and develoeprs do in fact tweak their games.. you makign a blanket statement that they do all of these things despite input lag is nonsense, as it is highly dependent on a game's gameplay whether they'll sacrifice input latency for a given effect.

And WTF do you keep bringing up Game Mode?  LOL, you know it TURNS OFF post processing effects... to reduce... input latency.

Quote
I don't get why you're adamant this is the line the average consumer will draw and refuse to compromise on.
People have played games that are entirely server based since Everquest. People played high input precision titles like Quake on a fucking 56k modem with 200+ ping.

Multiplayer games do not introduce control input lag in the same way all of the time because of client side prediction;  and in fact multiplayer games were not popular at all until Counterstrike introduced heavy client side prediction which actually favored 56k players over players on T1's at college dorms and workplaces.

They are also.. multiplayer games.. people are used to dealing with lag, and are frustrated by it.. and loads of people won't play games when they are experiencing it.   Not to mention specific types of games are played online and tweaked to handle the network lag.   

Nobody is happy when playing an online game and suddenly everyone jumps around the screen for a second or 2;  introducing that into single player games is going to fucking blow.. well it does blow, if you've ever experienced it.

kingv

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #266 on: March 22, 2019, 08:06:15 PM »
Best case scenario seems to be 166ms lag. That's 5 frames for games running at 30fps, and 10 for games running at 60. This absolutely makes games like 2D shooters and platformers unplayable.

https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/games/64131/stadia-recommended-internet-download-speed-requirements-1080p-4K-60FPS

This article says 30mbps is minimum for 4k.

30 mbps is about 3.75 MB/S x 3600 is about 13.5 GB/hour.

So about 8 hours to get to 100GB.

Iím not sure if Iíve seen the 3GB/hour anywhere, but thatís maybe for like 1080p, which would make sense as itís about 1/4 of 4K

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #267 on: March 22, 2019, 08:15:58 PM »
Lmao greatsage, lag from wireless controllers isnít that big. Definitely not 10 frames.

Youíre making arguments without any data.

PS4 controller wireless is 2.4 ms which is negligible in terms of lag and not noticeable to the human brain. We are not talking 2 ms or even 10 ms (the lag of a wired PS4 controller, which many pro players use to play games....with the assistance of a low latency monitor of course) but 165 ms. In most cases todayís wireless controllers add aboit a frame of lag. Thatís not shit.
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GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #268 on: March 22, 2019, 08:30:36 PM »
Facts                                                 Opinions
Lots of things add input lag                   Input lag is a deal breaker in and of itself to a mass majority
Game streaming adds input lag

Content and Pricing is whats going to ultimately make or break stadia.
Not input lag.

multiplayer games were not popular at all until Counterstrike

:what

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #269 on: March 22, 2019, 08:34:33 PM »
Lots of things add input lag. But the combined input lag isnít a big deal besides specific genres that need tight reactions. However, streaming adds 150+ms of input lag in demos. Which is a considerably increase by at least 80 times the number is now. This isnít hard to understand. Did you not read ďnegligible amountĒ?
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riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #270 on: March 22, 2019, 08:38:30 PM »
Facts                                                 Opinions
Lots of things add input lag                   Input lag is a deal breaker in and of itself to a mass majority
Game streaming adds input lag

Content and Pricing is whats going to ultimately make or break stadia.
Not input lag.

Continue to ignore that network lag is both highly varient, can spike horribly, and a larger single source of lag compared to anything you mentioned for most people.

Quote
multiplayer games were not popular at all until Counterstrike

:what

They were not mainstream.. like at all...

PC market was tiny compared to consoles where there was scant multiplayer.   Counterstrike is what blew up multiplayer gaming, created lan center businesses near colleges, etc.

Quake multiplayer was awesome; but the game took like 4 years to sell a million copies worldwide.. and a lot of people never even touched the multiplayer who didn't live in dorm rooms with high speed internet.

Counterstrike was the multiplayer gaming revolution.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 08:47:01 PM by riotous »

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #271 on: March 22, 2019, 08:39:18 PM »
Lots of things add input lag. But the combined input lag isnít a big deal besides specific genres that need tight reactions. However, streaming adds 150+ms of input lag in demos. Which is a considerably increase by at least 80 times the number is now. This isnít hard to understand. Did you not read ďnegligible amountĒ?

Streaming doesn't add that much;  they are talking about total input lag w/ streaming, which in their "perfect world" demos is an additional 20ms or so.

It's only realistic for people close to datacenters... and again.. people will experience spikes.  And loads of people will have much higher than 20ms additional lag.

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #272 on: March 22, 2019, 08:44:28 PM »
Lots of things add input lag. But the combined input lag isnít a big deal besides specific genres that need tight reactions. However, streaming adds 150+ms of input lag in demos. Which is a considerably increase by at least 80 times the number is now. This isnít hard to understand. Did you not read ďnegligible amountĒ?

yeah, I'm not questioning the existence or impact of input lag.
I'm stating that most people DGAF.

Most people don't buy low latency gaming specific TVs. Most people don't turn off all their TVs built in processing options.

I don't get why you're coming down so hard on the fact that this definitely matters to most people and this will definitely kill any possible online streaming only gaming system.
I'm not even saying this is definitely going to be a success; I'm saying it ain't the big deal you think it is.

Occam

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #273 on: March 22, 2019, 08:58:31 PM »
Lots of things add input lag. But the combined input lag isn’t a big deal besides specific genres that need tight reactions. However, streaming adds 150+ms of input lag in demos. Which is a considerably increase by at least 80 times the number is now. This isn’t hard to understand. Did you not read “negligible amount”?

yeah, I'm not questioning the existence or impact of input lag.
I'm stating that most people DGAF.

Most people don't buy low latency gaming specific TVs. Most people don't turn off all their TVs built in processing options.
I don't get why you're coming down so hard on the fact that this definitely matters to most people and this will definitely kill any possible online streaming only gaming system.
I'm not even saying this is definitely going to be a success; I'm saying it ain't the big deal you think it is.

And now those people who don't turn off image processing will have 166ms (or more) AND the processing lag. In order not to notice that kind of lag, you'd have to be suffering from some sort of terrible debilitating brain dysfunction that would presumably keep you from playing video games in the first place.
Are you saying that's Google's target audience?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:13:26 PM by Occam »
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kingv

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #274 on: March 22, 2019, 09:04:39 PM »
I think the biggest problem is that the techniques that multiplayer games use to hide lag wonít work in this method.

Like Quake or Counterstrike had player prediction, and the characters would jump around on screen, but typically, it didnít lag the players inputs to seeing stuff move on screen.

Like, you might have 200 ms of lag to the server, but you did not have 200ms of lag to moving your mouse and seeing the viewpoint shift. Thereís no way around this in streaming a game without running something client side.

Itís been a long time since I played quake, and I believe there was still lag when you clicked to shoot or hit a key to move your character.

But modern games donít even have that thst Iím aware of, just your shots might not register or your path gets slightly altered or whatever to sync you up to the server state. But like if you have bad lag in titanfall, you view still tracks the the movement of your right stick or mouse in real time, and you character is still responsive to your button clicks in real time.

IMO, this is going to feel a lot worst.

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #275 on: March 22, 2019, 09:05:53 PM »
You state that most people donít give a fuck when I flat out told you that even pro fighting game players play on inferior hardware that adds input lag. Therefore showing that even pro players donít mind the lag in todayís local playsetups. However, anyone who has streamed a movie on dsl with more than one person sharing the internet can attest, streaming isnít perfect. You can get super low quality, constant buffers. If someone else is just using the internet connection or downloading something. Imagine playing a single player game and not being able to because someone is watching porn on Pornbub. Sounds fun!

In order to make up for that you need a much better connection, something that isnít available to everyone. And in order for this game streaming to work even people with high end connections might not fit the bill. Very few people will be able to take advantage of this technology. And again, 10ms is not the same as 160ms. If you think most people wonít notice 10 frames of lag, you have another thing coming.

Finally, itís not just streaming that adds it. Anyone who is into retro gaming or competitive gaming knows that lag is a multi faceted thing. Controllers add it, TVs add it, systems can add it. Some people play on a monitor and play wirelessly. Others play in game mode. Either way, the combined factors now arenít that bad. But add streaming and wireless controllers and high latency lcds.

I donít understand how you can think most people wonít notice. When I lived at home earlier this decade and shared a connection with my folks my dad who is a 60 year old man complained about Netflix buffering. You expect someone who plays games wonít notice thereís a delay when they move their character?

No fucking way.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:11:57 PM by Cindi Mayweather »
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kingv

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #276 on: March 22, 2019, 09:09:39 PM »
Retro games are where I really notice I put lag nowadays.

Like playing a lot of NES or SNES games feels pretty bad compared to what I remember especially through non official emulators.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #277 on: March 22, 2019, 09:14:06 PM »
Itís been a long time since I played quake, and I believe there was still lag when you clicked to shoot or hit a key to move your character.

It was up to the server to change the level of client prediction back in those days;  when LAN gaming you'd set it to have little to no client prediction but if you used that same setup on a 56K you'd get input lag as you'd be waiting for the server to register your click.

As you mentioned modern games are heavily configured to favor client prediction, this really began with Counterstrike, the 56kers dream.   

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #278 on: March 22, 2019, 09:19:51 PM »
Either way, the combined factors now arenít that bad. But add streaming and wireless controllers and high latency lcds.

yeah, and you're still talking about 1/5th of a second delay between input and response.
If you're coming off of a wired controller high input responsiveness 60fps title to a streamed 30fps title, you're absolutely going to notice a difference in gamefeel, but you can say the same thing about coming off an old school FPS like a Quake 3 running at 200fps on a modern rig to a modern designed-for-console 30fps FPS like a COD.
People who are going to jump at this aren't coming off super responsive titles to make that comparison.

Thats why they were trialling it with a title like AC:O - animation driven player actions, not input driven, generous input timing windows, all the AAA 'little helper' controls that smartly veer you away from walking straight into walls and will snap you into the correct interaction hitboxes if you're close enough

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #279 on: March 22, 2019, 09:31:14 PM »
Its also odd to me you guys think only ďhardcoreĒ gamers will notice lag when in the current gaming landscape,ĒlagĒ is a one word rally cry of online games and has been since the early CS days. The purported suggestion that only hardcore gamers care about lag is...odd. Given that the biggest genre of the day are online shooters which is full of casual gamers. And even they,  when theyíre not using it as an excuse for their losses, notice lag.

So the idea that only hardcore will notice makes no sense. Do you think only hardcore gamers play online games? Lmao Itís fine if you think itíll be a success but a what a weird argument to make considering all of the current facts.
weed

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #280 on: March 22, 2019, 09:56:45 PM »
Its not that they won't notice. It's that they won't care.
If you show someone a video of a splitscreen comparison between an Xbox One game and the same game on an Xbox One X, they'll notice the graphical difference, and maybe even the framerate difference.

but only 20% of Xbox purchasers buy an Xbox One X. I'm using Xbox as the diffference is more pronounced, but its the same split between PS4 and PS4 Pro.
80% of people don't care enough to spend the extra money.

If the value proposition is something like $100 for a controller, chromecast and 6 months stadia sub, versus an xbox purchase + gamepass sub + xbl sub, how much care is involved for that extra $300?

Which is back to what I'm saying; its cost and content. If cost and content are appealing, people don't care about the compromises involved.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #281 on: March 22, 2019, 10:00:39 PM »
Cost is what will get people in the door, and I imagine Google will loss lead this a bit, but it still won't be that cheap and I have my doubts about casuals singing up for a gaming sub, but that's probably something they've market researched at least.

Whether people will be willing to put up with the input lag on their specific connection, as well as the inevitable glitching beyond the standard lag (a topic you keep refusing to respond to) is the question.

Like even the bro-est of bro casuals get furious and break their controllers when their QB throws an INT in Madden;  I can't imagine how they'll feel when their quartberack doesn't throw the ball for 2-3 seconds while the stream glitches and they are tackled for a safety because their Mom put some tendies in the microwave.

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #282 on: March 22, 2019, 10:09:12 PM »
the inevitable glitching beyond the standard lag (a topic you keep refusing to respond to) is the question.

Like... what's to respond to?
I've had console lockups, game crashes, irrecoverable glitching, internet drops mid session, been matchmade against people on toasters... I can;t even begin to enumerate the sheer number of minor annoyances while gaming in any form I've had over the years.

Still game tho.

What's your premise? Someone hits a lag spike, then rage quits streamed gaming for life and gos and buys a console instead?

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #283 on: March 22, 2019, 10:10:03 PM »
Yes

Although plenty of people it will just be outright unplayable even before any spikes occur.

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #284 on: March 22, 2019, 10:28:13 PM »
Despite all of the drawbacks that make me personally uninterested in this, I absolutely think there is a market for something like this.

Something like split screen multiplayer at 4k60 would be cool, and maybe make the input lag worth the sacrifice in some games.

I could see a market for people that might want to check out like a Red Dead 2 or other major release that even people that donít usually play games hear about and would want to check out while the advertising blitz is on.

But Iím not sure how the economics of it will really work out or if they can if itís basically ďjust another way to play games that you can play on Xbox and PlayStationĒ. I feel like the entry cost needs to be low, and it also needs to have all the big games day and date of release to get a lot of adoption from casuals.... and Iím not sure how that will work out for pubs or google.

I donít know enough (anything really) about the economics of bandwidth and server time to know if it would make sense for google  to just sell lifetime licenses for games at the same price they are on Xbox and PS4.... but based on what weíve seen with PSNOW and onlive, I have my doubts.

And I doubt it makes sense for pubs to just transition to some sort of Netflix/Spotify licensing arrangement for brand new games.

Probably the best idea is to come up with games that take advantage of the strengths of the platform and limit the disadvantages. This probably means some sort of different types of games than what is currently popular on console.


Coax

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #285 on: March 22, 2019, 10:40:36 PM »
I wonder if for PC games with significant issues that have community fixes whether Google would go as far as implementing them for Stadia. We've seen various games which are in considerably better form from such fixes and otherwise users would be at the whim of whatever state the official version is.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #286 on: March 22, 2019, 10:46:40 PM »
I wonder if for PC games with significant issues that have community fixes whether Google would go as far as implementing them for Stadia. We've seen various games which are in considerably better form from such fixes and otherwise users would be at the whim of whatever state the official version is.

Unless you want to use a controller for PC gaming, streaming is going to blow hard.  The input lag is way less forgivable with mouse controls.

Coax

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #287 on: March 22, 2019, 10:49:18 PM »
I'm not personally interested in it, I already saw how Onlive went. Just curious how they'd handle such scenarios.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #288 on: March 22, 2019, 10:53:44 PM »
Yeah it's interesting in general;  mods/fixes/etc. for PC are pretty important. 

If a game has crap performance on Stadia we might see Google pressuring pubs to fix it in the first place, but I doubt Google would be installing any unofficial fixes or mods.

Stro

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #289 on: March 23, 2019, 07:58:08 AM »
Latency spiked can happen inside of a datacenter, let alone in major cities near a data center.

A tech that requies a constant perfect internet connections at all times is not going to be perfect for anyone.

I am literally typing this message while remoted into an Azure VM, and in the midst of typing it, despite my typical 10ms ping to the server, my typing stalled out.   This happens to me a dozen times a day, along with 1 or 2 disconnects.   And I'm on a gigabit fiber connection.   It's conceptually very similar to game streaming.

I mean shit, everyone here has played MP games and knows that shit will go wonky during any gaming session of decent length a few times;  now imagine that causing you to die in a single player game.

Wow if spiritually true

chronovore

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #290 on: March 25, 2019, 03:46:07 AM »
Latency spiked can happen inside of a datacenter, let alone in major cities near a data center.

A tech that requies a constant perfect internet connections at all times is not going to be perfect for anyone.

I am literally typing this message while remoted into an Azure VM, and in the midst of typing it, despite my typical 10ms ping to the server, my typing stalled out.   This happens to me a dozen times a day, along with 1 or 2 disconnects.   And I'm on a gigabit fiber connection.   It's conceptually very similar to game streaming.

I mean shit, everyone here has played MP games and knows that shit will go wonky during any gaming session of decent length a few times;  now imagine that causing you to die in a single player game.

Yeah, except if the game's being hosted on Google datacenters rather than your home line, and the physics and damage allocation, etc. are all being handled there, then there's less bits of lag than when you're looking at peer-to-peer / last-mile connectivity and latency problems between two consoles. When everything's being handled on the datacenter and then the visuals lag, it's a problem, but it's a different kind of problem.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #291 on: March 26, 2019, 08:39:45 PM »
It can be a worse problem;  the visuals donít just lag your control inputs do while theoretically the game keeps playing on the server.  Your character dies or your car goes off the road, etc.  They can attempt to pause it but it would be at the very least janky.

Tasty

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #292 on: April 10, 2019, 08:29:40 PM »
Interested to try this out. Excited for the controller even though the face buttons are backwards.

Chromecast becomes the little gaming system I always knew it could be. :heart
🕊

thisismyusername

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #293 on: April 10, 2019, 10:59:09 PM »
Interested to try this out.

Of course you are...

Tasty

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #294 on: April 10, 2019, 11:10:34 PM »
It's exciting new tech, who wouldn't be interested in giving it a try? :idont
🕊

Momo

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #295 on: April 11, 2019, 05:58:51 AM »
 :letsfukk

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #296 on: April 11, 2019, 09:51:39 AM »
I mean.. so am I.  I was impressed by OnLive back in the day too, will likely be impressed with this.

I have a gigabit fiber connection with great pings to GCP, Azure, AWS, etc. so should be pretty dope.

Then I'll download some games to actually play for the longhaul lol

Since.. you know.. having gigabit fiber I can download a 50gb game and then go have a snack and it's done lol

Momo

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #297 on: April 12, 2019, 02:22:48 AM »
riotous out here hammering us with his internet privilege

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #298 on: April 12, 2019, 09:19:35 AM »
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/04/08/microsoft-executive-rubbishes-google-gaming-push/

MS are obviously feeling threatened by this existentially, because its a stupid-ass comment to make that they 'have the content' (content limited only to games playable on specifically Xbox One hardware natively, or that has been specifically patched for backwards compatibility) and Google are 'limited' to literally any game that runs on a linux based server via any method (natively, VMWare, Emulation) that they can sign a usage agreement with a publisher for.

riotous

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Re: Google Stadia: Electric Snoopaloo Sayga Bleemcast 2
« Reply #299 on: April 12, 2019, 10:32:37 AM »
riotous out here hammering us with his internet privilege

:snob: