It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread

[team filler]

church shooter reminds of the MTG tournament buttcrack guy

[Human Snorenado]

Thoughts, prayers, etc

[I'm a Puppy!]

I'm giving up thoughts and prayers for lent.

[CatsCatsCats]

What happened this time?

Edit: oh

[I'm a Puppy!]

What happened this time?

Something something guns, something something school, something something 17 dead kids.
Or as we call it in America, Wednesday.

[nudemacusers]

This stuff is just nauseating. Selfish, but at least my kids are in school on a military compound. I’m probably lying to myself that it makes a difference. But nobody seems interested in addressing it so it’s the best I can do.

[Corporal]

My condolences. Again. 

[Cerveza mas fina]

Phew luckily they didnt have access to berries and peanuts, could have been a real bloodbath if they weaponized allergies.

[bluemax]

The rate of these events has me to the point where I'm wondering what made this one so special to get so much coverage when like 15 of the other 20 this year only got a "in other news" type blip of coverage.

Maybe the number killed or the all the live tweets/videos? I dunno. I saw a stat that we have a mass shooting every 6.5 days or something on average.

Also for the first time in my life I work with people who own guns and yeeeah, they still don't think we need gun control.

[Cerveza mas fina]

the attack on a Florida high school is the eighth shooting to have resulted in death or injury during the first seven weeks of the year

 

[Stoney Mason]

Also for the first time in my life I work with people who own guns and yeeeah, they still don't think we need gun control.

Of course they don't. The only solution is even more guns.

American logic at its finest.

[Tasty]

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

[Mandark]

https://twitter.com/jasonroeder/status/963976307879985152

[Joe Molotov]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/964110212885106689

Just call the cops on kids more. Problem solved.

[ToxicAdam]

I've said it before, but if we had legalized suicide, we might prevent some of these things from happening. Because that's what mass-shootings are, a form of suicide.

That's not even to insinuate that the killers would off themselves. But in pursuing the process they would get the mental care health they desperately need (or could tip off authorities to these people before they pop).

[Tasty]

[Tasty]

https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/964054651258724352

[Nola]

Fucking assisited suicide to prevent gun deaths. 

It’s not that difficult. It’s a simple access and supply issue.

When it’s cheaper and easier to obtain a gun, the rate of gun related crimes and harm tends to increase. There is no solution that is going to be more effective than just dealing with that problem directly.

Of course realistically that is impossible until you deal with the underlying political structure that has captured an entire party by gun lobbyists. So at this rate you probably would get Toxic Adam’s legalized youth suicide program before the ATF is actually properly funded and supported or we have mandatory licensing and more extensive background checks for all gun purchases.

[agrajag]

What makes it hard for terrorist organizations like Al Quaeda and ISIS to get their hands on US military planes?

[ToxicAdam]

Fucking assisited suicide to prevent gun deaths. 

Not gun deaths, mass shootings. Huge difference.



Also, 2/3 of the 33,000 per year gun deaths ARE suicides.

Mass shootings are just suicides where the person blames the world (or an institution) and not himself. Which is why they lash out in public places.

If you give people a proper channel to commit suicide they might get the intervention they need to not do it. The current paradigm is NOT working because while homicide rates are going down, the suicide rate is going UP.

 

[I'm a Puppy!]

So....white nationalist?

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-florida-shooting-suspect-charged-20180215-story.html

I knew them getting emboldened by Trump would not bring good stuff, but I wasn't expecting it to be this bad.

[Nola]

Fucking assisited suicide to prevent gun deaths. 

Not gun deaths, mass shootings. Huge difference.



Also, 2/3 of the 33,000 per year gun deaths ARE suicides.

Mass shootings are just suicides where the person blames the world (or an institution) and not himself. Which is why they lash out in public places.

If you give people a proper channel to commit suicide they might get the intervention they need to not do it. The current paradigm is NOT working because while homicide rates are going down, suicide rate is going UP.

What makes you think someone that seeks to lash out at the world is going to just decide on assisted suicide instead? Your idea doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I have no problem addressing the issue of suicide, it's the suggestion that legalizing assisted suicide is somehow a sufficient check against mass shootings is a bit much though. If anything, if we are looking at corollaries that predict mass shootings, domestic violence has been about the best predictor on that front.  And there is rumblings of that with Cruz as well.

Its not that hard though:







Just take measures to reduce supply, restrict access, and do the thing liberals have been panning for for 100 years and introduce comprehensive UHC that incorporates universal access to mental health treatment.

[Nola]

So....white nationalist?

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-florida-shooting-suspect-charged-20180215-story.html

I knew them getting emboldened by Trump would not bring good stuff, but I wasn't expecting it to be this bad.

So much for the he is a "Dreamer" narrative that ws getting pushed around the right wing the last 24 hours because he had an un-merican sounding name.

[ToxicAdam]

If it were as simple as ubiquity of guns being the answer to all gun deaths, then our homicide rates would also be going up. But, they have dramatically gone down over the past 20-30 years.

Mass shootings are more about mental health and not the access to guns. That's what I'm trying to say when espousing assisted suicide. It's an avenue to get people "at risk" into care.

What makes you think someone that seeks to lash out at the world is going to just decide on assisted suicide instead? Your idea doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Some will, some won't. This isn't a silver bullet solution.

 Suicide isn't something a person wakes up one day and decides to do. They struggle with it for months, years and decades until they finally break.

[ToxicAdam]

It is both, that's why I said 'more about'. That infers that both things are culprits.

[Nola]

If it were as simple as ubiquity of guns being the answer to all gun deaths, then our homicide rates would also be going up. But, they have dramatically gone down over the past 20-30 years.

Mass shootings are more about mental health and not the access to guns. That's what I'm trying to say when espousing assisted suicide. It's an avenue to get people "at risk" into care.

What makes you think someone that seeks to lash out at the world is going to just decide on assisted suicide instead? Your idea doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Some will, some won't. This isn't a silver bullet solution.

 Suicide isn't something a person wakes up one day and decides to do. They struggle with it for months, years and decades until they finally break.

No one said it was a single factor issue. I suggested, and would continue to argue, that evidence shows that the most effective policy solution to reduce gun deaths that we know of has to do with dealing with two particular factors: access and supply.

Your suggestion that legalizing assisted suicide will meaningfully help mass shooters choose suicide over murder is basically based on a hunch. So forgive me for not treating it with the seriousness you prefer.

[Stoney Mason]

Also for the first time in my life I work with people who own guns and yeeeah, they still don't think we need gun control.

Of course they don't. The only solution is even more guns.

American logic at its finest.

The logic makes sense on an individual level, at least in the sense that you can understand it. Bad guys have guns, if I have gun I can protect myself from their guns. It's when you expand it out to "everyone should have a gun" is when it gets messy, but I don't think most gun nuts really advocate for everyone having a gun. It's more they don't ever want the government to be able to tell them they can't have a gun.

This logic only makes sense when you live in an American bubble. (By you I don't mean you as a poster but general American attitudes about the state of social problems and how you deal with them).

This goes for gun control and a myriad of other problems.

That being said, I'm increasingly nihilistic as I get older about american culture in general. While I'm completely sympathetic towards victims of the gun violence epidemic in this country we get what we deserve as a country by the values and policies we implement. And if insane levels of gun violence is gonna be one of those consequences then so be it. We deserve what we get. It's not like we don't have the resources to improve the situation.

[Mandark]

fwiw the shooter here was arrested and is alive, like Dylann Roof and the Aurora, Colorado shooter.

There are already resources for people considering suicide, and while those are oriented towards getting them back from the brink rather than ending it, I don't see any reason to think that mass shooters (who specifically want to kill other people) would be more likely to reach out if there were some bureaucratic path to legal suicide.

[Tasty]

It really isn't that hard to kill yourself. In fact keeping yourself alive is usually more difficult...

[ToxicAdam]

This isn't just about legalizing assisted suicide, this is about removing the stigma behind it. Legalizing goes a long way in doing that.

There is such a huge amount of shame involved with the topic of suicide. You're seen as a failure or a quitter or a reject. So much so, that people will put themselves into untenable situations with cops (or other armed people) just so they can get shot. In their disassociated mind, if it wasn't done by their hands, then they don't have the guilt or shame of the act.

For some people, by killing others (loved ones, strangers, places where emotional trauma happened) it justifies their suicide and removes the shame from it. When you have disassociated so much that ending your life makes sense, then you have zero chance of valuing the life of others.


I don't mind if people don't want to believe this. But as the years roll on, you'll keep seeing the correlation between suicide rates and mass shootings and start to understand what is going on here.

fwiw the shooter here was arrested and is alive, like Dylann Roof and the Aurora, Colorado shooter.

Many people fail at "murder by cop" or kill loved ones and then can't bring themselves to kill themselves.

You really think those people went into those situations thinking they were going to get out alive?

[Mandark]

Again, these are also people who want to kill lots of other people. I'm pretty sure that even a legal, socially accepted suicide process wouldn't give them a chance to do that.

[ToxicAdam]

If it was purely about killing people, they would just go into an arena and start mowing people down. Almost always they go back to the places where they feel they were emotionally abused and exact revenge first. That's why schools and workplaces get shot up more often than not.

[Mandark]

Yeah, they usually have specific people they want to kill.

[I'm a Puppy!]

The thing with guns is the fatalistic way gun nuts look at the problem. "You'll never be able to solve it!" yeah, that's true. There's always going to be people that get guns and use them illegally. You can't stop it. But we're supposed to just put up our hands and be like "Guess I'll die then" No other area of crime do we just say "Welp, I guess we should just live with it."

[etiolate]

The pattern is that volatility of shootings rise but not the frequency as much. It is a way to be famous. Familiarity to the people and grounds isn't always the case. The Vegas shooting was set up to accomplish large numbers of death, but there is no emotional connection to the setting.

They then get their face, name and kill count plastered across the media.

This Florida shooter did not kill himself, so that's the one element that doesn't' fall in line with patterns.

[Mandark]

The pattern is that volatility of shootings rise but not the frequency as much.

How do you mean?

[ToxicAdam]

Idk, ToxicAdam, I don't think the legality of suicide has a thing to do with with stigma, and I'm not sure how many people even know/give a shit that it's technically a crime anyway. Sure, tell me more about how suicide being illegal stigmatizes people that can't be charged because they're dead, TOXICADAM

I'm not sure why you are so hung up on the criminality aspect of it.

It's the stigma I am talking about. That is way more powerful than any law. Stigma feeds into shame. Shame feeds into silence.  Years of bottling it up and never seeking help leads to people breaking in a dramatic fashion. Sometimes hurting others in the process.

Legalizing it helps break up the stigma around it. By allowing suffering people to die in dignity on their own terms, you give room for more  people to be more open about it and their struggles with it.

We had a similar stigma around depression/anxiety at one time (in the US) and that lead many people into severe alcoholism in an effort to help combat it. Which in turn, caused numerous other related problems.

[Stoney Mason]

The thing with guns is the fatalistic way gun nuts look at the problem. "You'll never be able to solve it!" yeah, that's true. There's always going to be people that get guns and use them illegally. You can't stop it. But we're supposed to just put up our hands and be like "Guess I'll die then" No other area of crime do we just say "Welp, I guess we should just live with it."

This is what I mean about the American bubble. Other societies absolutely do look at the problems and decide to take action about such things. We are uniquely American in this regard that we shrug of such notions and actively insult other countries and their solutions We've always sucked at gun control and mental health issues but we actually use to be a bit better about this stuff even during the era of Reagan.

The increasing power of the NRA as a lobbying force and the rightward drift of the republican party and the republican electorate has made actual debate on the issue impossible. 30 years ago that stuff was on the table for discussion. It no longer is.   

There use to be a political cost for inaction on gun violence. There isn't anymore. So nothing is done.

[etiolate]

The pattern is that volatility of shootings rise but not the frequency as much.

How do you mean?

The rate of mass shootings are not going up in frequency (some variance year to year, but rather consistent frequency) but there is concern that there is an urge to out-do the last mass shooter, leading to what can best be described as kill count scorekeeping.

[ToxicAdam]

The "chasing fame" aspect of mass shooters. Which is another significant factor in this discussion when trying to figure out why it's so prevalent here.

[Stoney Mason]

Legalizing it helps break up the stigma around it. By allowing suffering people to die in dignity on their own terms, you give room for more  people to be more open about it and their struggles with it.

We had a similar stigma around depression/anxiety at one time (in the US) and that lead many people into severe alcoholism in an effort to help combat it. Which in turn, caused numerous other related problems.

I'm fine with a person wanting to kill themselves and having a medical solution towards it although I think mental health consultation as part of comprehensive health care will solve many more problems and be a lot more effective than just allowing people to kill themselves.

Old people really want to kill themselves generally because of health issues or just being sick of living for various reasons. Suicide for a young person is much more likely to be because of factors you can actually fix through real counseling.

[Mandark]

It's the stigma I am talking about. That is way more powerful than any law. Stigma feeds into shame. Shame feeds into silence.  Years of bottling it up and never seeking help leads to people breaking in a dramatic fashion. Sometimes hurting others in the process.

Legalizing it helps break up the stigma around it. By allowing suffering people to die in dignity on their own terms, you give room for more  people to be more open about it and their struggles with it.

We had a similar stigma around depression/anxiety at one time (in the US) and that lead many people into severe alcoholism in an effort to help combat it. Which in turn, caused numerous other related problems.

From what I understand you're approaching this as if the suicidal urge is what's driving the act, and killing other people is ancillary to that (to provide a catharsis or justification, to facilitate suicide by cop, etc.), and so by making it easier for men with suicidal tendencies to find support, we'd also preempt the killings.

I'll just say that I don't view it that way. I think the rage directed at the victims and a desire to harm them is probably a primary motivator, and the apparent pattern of these shooters having a history of domestic violence points towards that.

[Joe Molotov]

The "chasing fame" aspect of mass shooters. Which is another significant factor in this discussion when trying to figure out why it's so prevalent here.

I don't even remember the Vegas shooter's name or face.

[Trent Dole]

Haha dumbfucks with the mental health angle.

[Nola]

The pattern is that volatility of shootings rise but not the frequency as much.

How do you mean?

The rate of mass shootings are not going up in frequency (some variance year to year, but rather consistent frequency) but there is concern that there is an urge to out-do the last mass shooter, leading to what can best be described as kill count scorekeeping.

Nah, they are going up in frequency:



But you probably have a point about the keeping up with the joneses aspect to it. Since we have seen that sort of "Me Too" stuff with serial killers and suicides.

There is also just knowledge gains that come from the lessons of past experiences. Every new shooting is another blueprint for the next shooter to borrow from and learn what worked and what didn't.

[ToxicAdam]

I don't even remember the Vegas shooter's name or face.

Neither do I. Nor do I remember the name of the Batman movie shooter, or the Army base shooter, or the church shooter, or the delivery kid who shot up all those Amish school kids, or the Orlando Nightclub etc etc.

[etiolate]

Grant Duwe, a Ph.D. researcher in Minnesota and the author of Mass Murder in the United States: A History, has shown that mass murders actually track closely with homicide rates—and that, in the past decade, both dropped to their lowest levels since the 1960s. Indeed, according to Duwe’s research, the rate of mass murder was highest in 1929,

James Alan Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston, is one of the most prominent critics of the media’s mythology of increased mass murder. His own research shows that the numbers of mass shootings and mass-shooting victims in America have been remarkably consistent: roughly 20 shootings a year, with an average of 100 deaths. The number of shootings fluctuates annually, in spikes, which Fox credits to copycatting or sheer coincidence, but the average has held for 30 years.

And several graphs in this piece:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/04/mass-shootings-more-deadly-frequent-research-215678

[Himu]

I find it disgusting how the media uses these situations to take actual victims of this to propagate an anti-gun narrative when we KNOW that the FBI received a warning about this kid and did nothing with it. But guns are the SOLE problem? Same with Omar Mateen. Guy had red flags. Was put on lists. But nope. The government isn’t even doing its job here. But somehow more laws will fix things? How was he not flagged when purchasing? That’s the REAL question.

[TakingBackSunday]

Sane people aren't saying guns are the sole problem.

The fact that we don't have more strict rules on access and that background checks are so pathetic is why shit like this happens.

I'm curious as to why more than anything you're upset at people calling for gun control...instead of being upset that a dude killed 17 people with a gun.

[etiolate]

I imagine the frustration is calling for vague "gun control" when we don't know how the kid got a gun in the first place. If this is the default reaction there is dissonance between your desire for gun control and your care for the effectiveness of gun control.

You have to know how the kid acquired the gun in order to figure what sort of policy would be effective or if he just went around existing policy.

[Himu]

More than anything? I’m pretty sad about it actually. Which is why I contested why people are talking about their anti-gun narrative rather than the victims were even cold.

Did you hear about the coach who gave his life by shielding his students as the gunman fired shots? Or are you more concerned that a 17 year old killed people with firearms? See how people can jump to conclusions and throw out random, awful insinuations?

[Stoney Mason]

Everybody knows gun control means stricter background checks including stuff like the gun show loophole including up to general bans or strict limitations in general on buying assault rifle style weapons. That is part and parcel part of all gun control legislation everywhere.

None of this shit is new. It's the same stuff that gets brought up every time for the last 30 years and nothing happens.

[Phoenix Dark]

You have to know how the kid acquired the gun in order to figure what sort of policy would be effective or if he just went around existing policy.

...and then the NRA/republicans will reject any potentially effective solution presented. 

[Himu]

You have to know how the kid acquired the gun in order to figure what sort of policy would be effective or if he just went around existing policy.

...and then the NRA/republicans will reject any potentially effective solution presented. 

Not necessarily. They did ban bump stocks after Las Vegas thankfully.

[Phoenix Dark]

You have to know how the kid acquired the gun in order to figure what sort of policy would be effective or if he just went around existing policy.

...and then the NRA/republicans will reject any potentially effective solution presented. 

Not necessarily. They did ban bump stocks after Las Vegas thankfully.

No, they didn't; it passed the House and hasn't been taken up in the senate. States have started banning them though.

[Himu]

You have to know how the kid acquired the gun in order to figure what sort of policy would be effective or if he just went around existing policy.

...and then the NRA/republicans will reject any potentially effective solution presented. 

Not necessarily. They did ban bump stocks after Las Vegas thankfully.

No, they didn't; it passed the House and hasn't been taken up in the senate. States have started banning them though.

Ah, I was referring to the house.

[Stoney Mason]

You have to know how the kid acquired the gun in order to figure what sort of policy would be effective or if he just went around existing policy.

...and then the NRA/republicans will reject any potentially effective solution presented. 

Not necessarily. They did ban bump stocks after Las Vegas thankfully.

No, they didn't; it passed the House and hasn't been taken up in the senate. States have started banning them though.

And you can almost guarantee it won't be picked up at the federal level. And the states that tend to be aggressive about this stuff tend to also be the states that want more aggressive gun control in the first place.

Of course it would just be better to do this action at the national level but when the NRA and Republicans are in bed together fat chance of that happening. 

[etiolate]

http://www.heraldnet.com/news/grandmother-turns-in-teen-who-allegedly-planned-shooting/

A would-be school shooter in Everett bought inert grenades, hid a military-style rifle in a guitar case and carried out an armed robbery to fund an elaborate plot to kill his classmates, according to police.

O’Connor wrote that he wanted the death count to be as high as possible so that the shooting would be infamous, according to court papers. He went into detail about building pressure-cooker bombs, activating inert grenades and deploying explosives for maximum casualties.

“I need to make this count,” O’Connor reportedly wrote. “I’ve been reviewing many mass shootings/bombings (and attempted bombings) I’m learning from past shooters/bombers mistakes.”



You think to yourself that keeping a journal of this is dumb as hell, but then you realize its part of the whole ego trip.

[Phoenix Dark]

You have to know how the kid acquired the gun in order to figure what sort of policy would be effective or if he just went around existing policy.

...and then the NRA/republicans will reject any potentially effective solution presented. 

Not necessarily. They did ban bump stocks after Las Vegas thankfully.

No, they didn't; it passed the House and hasn't been taken up in the senate. States have started banning them though.

Ah, I was referring to the house.

But you said "they" banned bump stocks after Las Vegas, suggesting a law was passed. Nothing happened after Las Vegas, or Sandy Hook, etc.

I'm not a gun control dude, btw. I support some regulations (specifically a crackdown on gun trafficking, straw purchases, gun show loophole) but overall I dislike how certain people jump out the window demanding "something" be done which rarely actually addresses the issue.

[Atramental]

http://www.heraldnet.com/news/grandmother-turns-in-teen-who-allegedly-planned-shooting/

A would-be school shooter in Everett bought inert grenades, hid a military-style rifle in a guitar case and carried out an armed robbery to fund an elaborate plot to kill his classmates, according to police.

O’Connor wrote that he wanted the death count to be as high as possible so that the shooting would be infamous, according to court papers. He went into detail about building pressure-cooker bombs, activating inert grenades and deploying explosives for maximum casualties.

“I need to make this count,” O’Connor reportedly wrote. “I’ve been reviewing many mass shootings/bombings (and attempted bombings) I’m learning from past shooters/bombers mistakes.”



You think to yourself that keeping a journal of this is dumb as hell, but then you realize its part of the whole ego trip.

It’s like some sort of demented video game to these sociopaths...