US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP

[agrajag]

Well, now you see why Trump was trying to obstruct this probe so much. The pieces kingv quoted are damning from a political standpoint. But the republicans probably pretty effectively poisoned the well already.

[BisMarckie]

The problem has always been "what crime does that collusion represent?" to me.

I've never gotten a good answer to that question;  unless money exchanged hands I doubt anything was illegal.

i am not well versed in US politics, but when I worked on an investigation against people who allegedly received bribes I got the same impression. There is a lot of smoke, a lot of shady shit that happened, but unless you have anything more than circumstantial evidece, there isn’t much you ca do.

[Joe Molotov]

You're gonna get tired of all the exoneration.

[VomKriege]

The problem has always been "what crime does that collusion represent?" to me.

I've never gotten a good answer to that question;  unless money exchanged hands I doubt anything was illegal.

Conspiracy and coordination seems to be the actual legal parliance.
They couldn't prove it but the report is very unflattering there, saying that members of the Trump campaign knew of the interference effort by Russia, expected to benefit electorally from it and didn't cooperate as much as expected with the investigation about it.

Mueller also deferred to Congress about the potential obstruction and it seems to me that Congress may actually have enough to open a procedure even if it doesn't go anywhere.

[VomKriege]

Also stated in the report : Trump Campaign members may have deleted evidence/communications, that the lack of those records mean they couldn't corroborate claims from witnesses and that as such the conclusion on the absence of collusion is lukewarm at best.

Barr really stretched as much as he could the two reductive bits he quoted in his memo.
 

[agrajag]

It should be Eraclear by now that Barr is not a good faith actor.

[Tripon]

https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/status/1118901612636966912

 

[agrajag]

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/1118902470024019968

this is another important thing to note. All the people who are doing victory laps because the Mueller report "exonerated" Trump are picking and choosing which parts to believe. Because I am pretty sure the Mueller report has no mention of Seth Rich*




*what if he's one of the redacted persons of interest 

[Dickie Dee]

The problem has always been "what crime does that collusion represent?" to me.

I've never gotten a good answer to that question;  unless money exchanged hands I doubt anything was illegal.

Conspiracy and coordination seems to be the actual legal parliance.
They couldn't prove it but the report is very unflattering there, saying that members of the Trump campaign knew of the interference effort by Russia, expected to benefit electorally from it and didn't cooperate as much as expected with the investigation about it.

Mueller also deferred to Congress about the potential obstruction and it seems to me that Congress may actually have enough to open a procedure even if it doesn't go anywhere.

https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1118909372489523200

Edit: Don't know why it's also embedding the pee tape tweet but whatevs

[VomKriege]

I mean Era is in a frenzy but if I understand correctly :

- Report to be released to Congress.
- No redactions by the White House.
- Redactions by the AG related to ongoing cases and to protect third parties from slander.
- 10 episodes characterising the suspected obstruction on which the Special Councel weighted legal musings which I imagine are included, Barr's opinion notwithstanding.
- More details on Russian interferences and possible links between Trump Campaign staff and possible information brokers even if no direct link proved between the Russian Government and Trump, probably included in the report.
- Barr not opposed to Mueller being called to Congress for testimony.

Isn't it all a rather positive outcome regardless of the spin ?

Who the fuck cares what some randoms on Era think? I know the answer is an unhealthy niche of people a thread over that derives an unhealthy size of their identity from hating that site, but still.

Anyways, more like let's just wait and read the report.

There are very real concerns about Barr's role in this process, including just now from that conference. Where it looks more and more like Barr is turning the DOJ into Trump's second defense counsel and PR firm. What is left redacted and what the inevitable leaks/impressions from the less-redacted congressional version signals will be the hinge on how to swing judgment going forward IMO.

I mean, I obviously wasn't praising Barr (hence why I talk of spin) but he is releasing the report and I'm not even sure the delay was unreasonable. I mentioned RE because it's a good barometer of the most emotionally clouded reactions. It's a bit disgraceful Barr felt the need to defend Trump and share his peculiar interpretation of what is obstruction but ultimately the House can discard it if they so decide.

[kingv]

I just mean the trump tower meeting is all you need to see to know that there was illegal coordination. Setting up the meeting was likely a crime.

You should explain how knowingly taking a meeting with a representative of a foreign government to get dirt on your political opponent squares with FEC laws.

Here is the relevant portion(s) straight from the FEv website:

The Act and Commission regulations include a broad prohibition on foreign national activity in connection with elections in the United States. 52 U.S.C. § 30121 and generally, 11 CFR 110.20. In general, foreign nationals are prohibited from the following activities:

Making any contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or making any expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement in connection with any federal, state or local election in the United States;
Making any contribution or donation to any committee or organization of any national, state, district, or local political party (including donations to a party nonfederal account or office building account);
Making any disbursement for an electioneering communication;
Making any donation to a presidential inaugural committee.
Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to an FEC enforcement action, criminal prosecution, or both.

Soliciting, accepting, or receiving contributions and donations from foreign nationals

The Act prohibits knowingly soliciting, accepting or receiving contributions or donations from foreign nationals. In this context, "knowingly" means that a person:

Has actual knowledge that the funds solicited, accepted, or received are from a foreign national;
Is aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the funds solicited, accepted, or received are likely to be from a foreign national; or
Is aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to inquire whether the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national.
Pertinent facts that should cause the recipient of a contribution or donation to question whether it was given by a foreign national include, but are not limited to the following: a donor or contributor uses a foreign passport, provides a foreign address, makes a contribution from a foreign bank, or resides abroad. Commission regulations provide for a safe harbor: obtaining a copy of a current and valid U.S. passport would satisfy the duty to inquire whether the funds solicited, accepted, or received are from a foreign national.

A plain reading of the rules says that

1) The Russian government was clearly offering a thing of value in the email.
2) everybody in that meeting knew that they were offering a thing of value
3) the whole purpose of the meeting was for the Russians to give something to help the trump campaign.

If someone says opposition research doesn’t have value, that’s obviously wrong because people pay large amounts for it. It seems to be a very obvious violation of election law.

Mueller seems to agree with this:

https://twitter.com/eshap/status/1118910309320876035

But let’s them off on the idea that they would all deny knowing it was a crime.

[team filler]

[Tripon]

The Mueller report also lays out the ways that Trump campaign officials and surrogates amplified the IRA's messages on Twitter and Facebook as they sought to interfere in public discourse and amplify divisive political rhetoric.

Trump campaign officials, including senior adviser Kellyanne Conway and Donald Trump Jr., cited and retweeted content from the IRA about topics including voter fraud and Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton's handling of classified information, according to Mueller.   
Mueller's team found that Trump campaign affiliates promoted "dozens" of tweets, posts and other political content created by the IRA.

NBC News previously reported that Trump campaign associates amplified and reposted the IRA's messages.

Donald Trump Jr. in 2016 retweeted a post from @Pamela_Moore13, an IRA-controlled Twitter account, and in 2017, Trump from his personal Twitter account responded to a tweet from IRA-affilaited @10_GOP.

"IRA employees monitored the reaction of the Trump campaign and, later, Trump administration officials to their tweets," Mueller's report reads.

Mueller's investigation concluded that Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election to boost Trump through a social media campaign coordinated by the IRA.

The IRA purchased 3,000 political ads on Facebook’s platform and operated hundreds of accounts attempting to influence the perspectives of Americans during the 2016 elections.

https://thehill.com/policy/technology/439532-mueller-identified-dozens-of-us-rallies-organized-by-russian-troll-farm

[VomKriege]

Doesn't the US have "ignorance of the law is not a legal defense" principle ?
Because that quote from the report about the June 9 meeting is .

[BisMarckie]

The Irish? I knew it was them! Even when it was the Russians, I knew it was them!

[Nola]

I mean Era is in a frenzy but if I understand correctly :

- Report to be released to Congress.
- No redactions by the White House.
- Redactions by the AG related to ongoing cases and to protect third parties from slander.
- 10 episodes characterising the suspected obstruction on which the Special Councel weighted legal musings which I imagine are included, Barr's opinion notwithstanding.
- More details on Russian interferences and possible links between Trump Campaign staff and possible information brokers even if no direct link proved between the Russian Government and Trump, probably included in the report.
- Barr not opposed to Mueller being called to Congress for testimony.

Isn't it all a rather positive outcome regardless of the spin ?

Who the fuck cares what some randoms on Era think? I know the answer is an unhealthy niche of people a thread over that derives an unhealthy size of their identity from hating that site, but still.

Anyways, more like let's just wait and read the report.

There are very real concerns about Barr's role in this process, including just now from that conference. Where it looks more and more like Barr is turning the DOJ into Trump's second defense counsel and PR firm. What is left redacted and what the inevitable leaks/impressions from the less-redacted congressional version signals will be the hinge on how to swing judgment going forward IMO.

I mean, I obviously wasn't praising Barr (hence why I talk of spin) but he is releasing the report and I'm not even sure the delay was unreasonable. I mentioned RE because it's a good barometer of the most emotionally clouded reactions. It's a bit disgraceful Barr felt the need to defend Trump and share his peculiar interpretation of what is obstruction but ultimately the House can discard it if they so decide.

The delay was certainly reasonable. The turning of the DOJ into a second defense attorney firm for the president, including scrapping the special counsel's own summaries and offering a politically tactical and inappropriate exonerative framing to get out a protective narrative into the public ahead of later corrections and context, to me is certainly not.

[Boredfrom]

Filler cannot read. So sad.

[agrajag]

Filler cannot read. So sad.

filler is a low rent troll, more at 11

[TakingBackSunday]

(Image removed from quote.)

You purposefully bring dumb?

[team filler]

 

[Tripon]

https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/1118920290124349441

 

AKA, A lie.

[Boredfrom]

(Image removed from quote.)

You purposefully bring dumb?

Dude, that has been his gimmick since Day 1 

[Tripon]

From the shit we're reading, it reads like the Trump campaign tried to throw everything on the wall and see what stuck to damage the Clinton campaign. The question now is if they're bold enough to do that again in 2020 to re-elect Trump.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Of course they will.

[close]

[team filler]

[Joe Molotov]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1118848431932493824

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!

[Tripon]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1118848431932493824

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1118876219381026818
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1118860425599307777
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1118921900858793985

[kingv]

https://twitter.com/david_leavitt/status/1118926941195833344

This comment casts the whole report in a different light, and essentially serves as a huge asterisk on the Russian conspiracy questions.

It’s basically saying there was an effort to obstruct justice amongst members of the campaign that led to an inability to fully account for what happened between the campaign and Russia.

[agrajag]

https://www.scribd.com/document/406729844/Mueller-Report

[kingv]

So Prince and Bannon gave conflicting accounts of the Seychelles meeting, but both had also deleted all of the messages on their phones prior to May 2017 so nobody could figure out if one or both were lying.

That’s not suspicious or anything like that.

[Nintex]

Nothing happened. They were a bunch of fucking AMATEURS.

I mean, anyone with a Twitter or 4chan account knew what was going on with the Trump campaign and pretty much anyone who hated Hillary Clinton could jump on the ship.

The June 9 meeting is going to be the best scene of the movie

https://twitter.com/AdamHerbets/status/1118901214710775810

[Trent Dole]

[Nintex]

At least Trump is having a good day

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1118934718764998662

[Nintex]

Kushner's role is even better.

He asked the Russians if they could use their embassy to communicate. The Russians shot that down. 

https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1118932579112112129

In other words, the Russians actually protected Kushner from doing borderline illegal shit.

Some of these guys only got lucky because someone else told them 'no'. 

[Nintex]

LMAO these fucking Russians

https://twitter.com/gatewaypundit/status/1118936024208551936

Poor Michael 

[Nintex]

This report is the gift that keeps on giving.

[Tripon]

https://twitter.com/i/events/1118929141171015681

Trump's lawyer told Manafort he'd be taken 'care of,' Mueller report says
The redacted report highlighted a conversation in which former campaign manager Paul Manafort told Rick Gates, a former aide who cooperated with investigators, that he perceived the president would offer him a pardon. However, Trump did not offer Manafort a pardon in exchange for not pleading guilty. Mueller ultimately did not exonerate Trump of charges of obstruction.

[Occam]

If nothing happens to Trump after this, then America no longer is a nation governed by law.

(Spoiler: Nothing will happen to Trump.)

[Joe Molotov]

Nothing was ever going to happen.

[VomKriege]

Is there any reason not to impeach ? I don't buy that it would somehow help Trump with voters at large and I think you can both campaign on the issues and entangle him in proceedings.

[team filler]

Nothing was ever going to happen.

enjoy your burgers everyone 

[Tripon]

https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1118916458040451075

The double down. 

[agrajag]

Is there any reason not to impeach ? I don't buy that it would somehow help Trump with voters at large and I think you can both campaign on the issues and entangle him in proceedings.

they could impeach him, but they will never get 2/3 of the senate vote to remove him. Pelosi signaled that she is not interested in impeachment.

[Nintex]

They won't impeach him because if Trump is gone Pence is in. 

I like how specifically stuff Trump said in the report isn't redacted but some of the stuff surrounding it is.
Also at first you think that Don Jr. is the comedic relief character but soon you realize that part goes to Kushner.

[Himu]

Trump gloating about no collusion on his twitter after trying obstruct for years is maddening

[Nintex]

https://twitter.com/JimSwiftDC/status/1118950020269502464

 

The campaign that was 'supposed' to collude with Russia did not know what their ambassador was called and e-mailed around to ask 

[team filler]

it's a nothing burger because trump is not getting impeached, not spending any time in jail and he's still the front runner for 2020 

[team filler]

bootygang annihilated 

[VomKriege]

Is there any reason not to impeach ? I don't buy that it would somehow help Trump with voters at large and I think you can both campaign on the issues and entangle him in proceedings.

they could impeach him, but they will never get 2/3 of the senate vote to remove him. Pelosi signaled that she is not interested in impeachment.

Removal is not necessary. It's a given that more damaging stuff and financial crimes suspicions will keep trickling down from the host of other investigations. Keep the spotlight on the fact he's a crook, have the House then the Senate keep asking inconvenient questions. Force Republicans in Senate to publicly vote for not removing him. Have the Presidential candidates work on issues and policies in the meantime.

The GOP would not hesitate a second to do so, on far more flimsier pretexts.

I think it's the right thing to do, on principle and out of interest.

[Himu]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/18/us/politics/trump-obstruction-of-justice.html

[Boredfrom]

Filler being salty. 

[Himu]

Filler:

While the report does not find that the president or his campaign aides had committed any crimes in their contacts with Russians, it lays bare how Mr. Trump was elected with the help of a foreign power. When a federal inquiry was started to investigate the Russian effort, he took numerous steps to try to undermine it.

The special counsel found that Mr. Trump had the authority to make many of his most controversial decisions, including the firing of James B. Comey as F.B.I. director, by virtue of the powers the Constitution grants him. At the same time, it is a far more damning portrayal of his behavior than the one presented last month in a four-page letter released by Attorney General William P. Barr.

“The incidents were often carried out through one-on-one meetings in which the president sought to use his official power outside of usual channels,” the report said. “These actions ranged from efforts to remove the special counsel and to reverse the effect of the attorney general’s recusal; to the attempted use of official power to limit the scope of the investigation; to direct and indirect contacts with witnesses with the potential to influence their testimony. Viewing the acts collectively can help to illuminate their significance.”

In his letter, Mr. Barr announced that — while Mr. Mueller had made no judgment about whether Mr. Trump had obstructed justice — he had decided that the president had not.

source: NYT

[team filler]

 

[TakingBackSunday]

go back to fucking 4 chan already

[curly]

Why do you let filler get to you. It's like getting beat up by a five year old.

[EightBitNate]

Did we win yet

[VomKriege]

Impeach for what?

Obstruction.
There's enough for it. The report is more or less saying that potential obstruction may have hindered the investigation on the contacts with Russian parties.

[Boredfrom]

Why do you let filler get to you. It's like getting beat up by a five year old.

Is more like a 5 year old pissing hilmself in the kitchen and keeps doing because everyone says to him that he is hot shit (while not detecting the obvious sarcasm).

[team filler]

 

[nachobro]

no one is getting impeached foh lol

[Cauliflower Of Love]

impeach filler for dangerous sodium levels!