Wank Dad 2: Electric Wankaloo

[Momo]

forum is messing up my formatting


EDIT: Think I fixed it, idk why it happens has for the last 10 years, demi pls.

[Mandark]

a lot of what you objected to in that thread was calling him on his bullshit directly, but you weren't comfortable with those aspects being called bullshit, because either you agreed with it, or the conflict lines reminded you too much of left/right politics to which you're averse.

receipts

I think a lot of you don't give Peterson credit when he makes sense and I think some of you are unwilling to call him out for the taking of wisdom from fairy tales bullshit, yes he derives at decent conclusion most of the time, but the source is fucking Hansel and Gretel or bible shit.

[Momo]

That post is saying 'attack his methodology not his conclusions' when the conclusions are obvious shit like 'work hard, clean your room' etc, specifically cause he derives it from 'in the bible there was a story once about a man making wine from a grape he put so much effort into it and cleaned up later'. What did you think I was saying? This is part of the issue I have, why do you guys assume it's adversarial when it's obviously not.

[shosta]

Leave Momo alone, you fucking coward!

[Mandark]

That post is saying 'attack his methodology not his conclusions' when the conclusions are obvious shit like 'work hard, clean your room' etc

Click the link to see your own quote in context, then come back and tell me people were attacking his bland, self-help instructions.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Narrator: They were not, they were clowning him for his nonsense about Frozen.

[close]

[Momo]

The only defense I can think of I've ever offered JP and friends is how disingenuous the media are about them, which stems from the same place.

[shosta]

Shos, I gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed with you. I totally expect someone like etiloiate to dismiss such an article, but not you.

Then you've misread me completely. I side with etiolate most of the time he posts.

oh my god

[Mandark]

The only defense I can think of I've ever offered JP and friends is how disingenuous the media are about them, which stems from the same place.

the same thing you've done for alex jones, and when I asked for receipts you said "wow I'm so wounded you wouldn't just take my word for it but give me a couple days" then did nothing

[Momo]

I tried, the post links to my profile. Tbh I dont remember much of this 

[Mandark]

The quote about peterson links to the original wank dad thread. The quote about alex jones is from a PM, cause you decided you wanted to shift the discussion out of public for whatever reason.

KEEP UP

[Momo]

The only defense I can think of I've ever offered JP and friends is how disingenuous the media are about them, which stems from the same place.

the same thing you've done for alex jones, and when I asked for receipts you said "wow I'm so wounded you wouldn't just take my word for it but give me a couple days" then did nothing

If I ever disengage it's because i feel it's pointless and adversarial, I've gone back and forth for pages with Boredfrom and others, where I figure out i'm wrong or both of us moved positions slightly but sometimes I dont feel it's worth my time.  I'm consistent when calling out media sources I read for dumb-assery btw. 

[Mandark]

You disengaged cause you said something that wasn't true and got called on it.

[shosta]

Ok, Mandark. You caught me. I hate women.

you keep bringing in stuff that i haven't said

i do think you resent feminists (and this was established outside this thread) tho

You do resent feminists

Fuck you Mandark, I'm mad all over again

After that post, Etiolate and I started exchanging messages about how much we hate you

[Mandark]

I'm consistent when calling out media sources I read for dumb-assery btw.

I don't see why you need to be so closed-minded and dismissive of media sources you disagree with, instead of seeing their point of view and potentially re-examining assumptions on your own side?

[Momo]

The quote about peterson links to the original wank dad thread. The quote about alex jones is from a PM, cause you decided you wanted to shift the discussion out of public for whatever reason.

KEEP UP

I clicked through and i'm more confused now, I guess I have to read a page back or something.

[Mandark]

Fuck you Mandark, I'm mad all over again

IIRC I was going off your "people gotta chill, whipping your dick out in public is fine" stance from the #metoo thread.

[Momo]

I'm consistent when calling out media sources I read for dumb-assery btw.

I don't see why you need to be so closed-minded and dismissive of media sources you disagree with, instead of seeing their point of view and potentially re-examining assumptions on your own side?

I specifically do though? I read the report then criticize it, hence the 'I read' in the sentence. 

You're doing this thing again, being adversarial for no real reason.

[shosta]

Fuck you Mandark, I'm mad all over again

IIRC I was going off your "people gotta chill, whipping your dick out in public is fine" stance from the #metoo thread.

omg, did I defend some people in the #metoo thread?

Don't you dare dig up receipts. I don't want to see them.

[Mandark]

I specifically do though? I read the report then criticize it, hence the 'I read' in the sentence.

No you don't, you make blanket statements about "the media" and don't back them up when asked for clarification.

Remember when you said Vox was just like Gawker? ell oh ell

[jakefromstatefarm]

jake should have a blog

the blogosphere is dead and 90% of it moved to twitter and this is legit the shittiest thing ever for all the obvious reasons. An appropriate topic for a thread like this to cover is how worthless intellectual discourse is online in the first age where the internet’s everywhere and being used by everyone.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

All of my well actuallys are just regurgitating stuff from blogs that I follow + open source material (like that sep link above) + first impressions (that is to say NOT systematic deep readings) of primary sources. The upshot is pretty much always either ‘this is harder than you think; there are a range of tenable positions, so cool it with the incendiaries’ or ‘you’re being a numbnuts about how you’re interpreting this, you need to be both more critical and more charitable’.

[close]

[Mandark]

omg, did I defend some people in the #metoo thread?

Don't you dare dig up receipts. I don't want to see them.

OH IT'S TOO LATE

In the context of Terry Crews:

No, it should be considered as an inappropriate drunk groping during a Christmas party. That guy was so trashed everyone kicked him out of the party. That stuff just happens when you're blackout.

You should all click through, some good memories there.

[Momo]

I specifically do though? I read the report then criticize it, hence the 'I read' in the sentence.

No you don't, you make blanket statements about "the media" and don't back them up when asked for clarification.

Remember when you said Vox was just like Gawker? ell oh ell

They are, how many Carlos Maza articles do you want me to send you? They do not hold themselves to a high standard of journalism, I read Vox but i fact check. 

Again what are you doing here? Just trying to be adversarial until I back down as usual cause this isnt worth my time?

[Mandark]

Nah, you're just retconning past discussions from this board and I'm calling it out. Not personal, but don't ask for receipts if you don't want them.


edit: or as shosta showed, don't ask for no receipts either. Listen, you're getting receipts.

[shosta]

don't ask for receipts if you don't want them.

You hand them out anyway

That PD response was so good though

[Momo]

I'm still reading back btw, I still dont get your problem with that specific post. Would have helped if I was quoting something, I tend to anwer stuff pages back with a general thought so idk.

[shosta]

I linked to Quillette in the old wank dad thread just kill me now

real story, there was a girl who was interested in me, and I gave her an anthology of Sylvia Plath poems for her birthday, and we straight up just stopped talking

maybe the canon would have worked better???

hey Jake, I just read The Genealogy of Morals. Can you... please explain to me how Nietzsche is not an anti-Semitic fascist?

make it stop

[Momo]

I think I understand now - it's a general thought, not specific to Frozen. first part was directed at most of the people in thread (ourselves) second part was for the etoilets, third part is my standing criticism of JP.

[Mandark]

Dude I get that you're conflict-averse and that's just a matter of personal disposition, but you gotta recognize that trying to impose guidelines in the middle of a roast is kinda priggish and not going to get good results.

[Momo]

Dude I get that you're conflict-averse and that's just a matter of personal disposition, but you gotta recognize that trying to impose guidelines in the middle of a roast is kinda priggish and not going to get good results.

The fact that you see discussing ideas as a roast is a problem to me. I'm not averse to conflict or debate, I'm averse to wasting time.

[Mandark]

Dude I get that you're conflict-averse and that's just a matter of personal disposition, but you gotta recognize that trying to impose guidelines in the middle of a roast is kinda priggish and not going to get good results.

The fact that you see discussing ideas as a roast is a problem to me.

Well if it's a discussion of ideas, then jumping in to unilaterally dictate which aspects people should criticize would be even worse.

[shosta]

I can't point to an empirical metric. Actually, I can't even think of one that would be meaningfully related. I concede that's usually a good starting point for claiming anything is ever a problem at all.

Shostakovich 2018 or Leadbelly 2019?

[Mandark]

the blogosphere is dead and 90% of it moved to twitter and this is legit the shittiest thing ever for all the obvious reasons. An appropriate topic for a thread like this to cover is how worthless intellectual discourse is online in the first age where the internet’s everywhere and being used by everyone.

The character limit is understandably the focus of discussions of Twitter, but I think dumping everyone into the same de facto message board has as much to do with anything in both its popularity and toxicity.

[Momo]

Dude I get that you're conflict-averse and that's just a matter of personal disposition, but you gotta recognize that trying to impose guidelines in the middle of a roast is kinda priggish and not going to get good results.

The fact that you see discussing ideas as a roast is a problem to me.

Well if it's a discussion of ideas, then jumping in to unilaterally dictate which aspects people should criticize would be even worse.

You're acting like having standards when discussing ideas is somehow a flaw and claiming what's happening in this thread (in general) is criticism. This thread and that one is different. I pop into this thread every couple of months and it's ad hominem and mockery garbage, which is fine, that's what this thread is. Originally when I complained, etoilet seemed to want to discuss his ideas seriously and I was willing to give him the space to do so and to offer criticism where applicable, so my complaints there doesnt apply here.

[shosta]

I finally got to the part in the thread where Etiolate flips out and posts pictures of starving kids. What a legendary thread.

[Momo]

I finally got to the part in the thread where Etiolate flips out and posts pictures of starving kids. What a legendary thread.

did you get to the part where he got unbanned and did it again?

[Mandark]

Originally when I complained, etoilet seemed to want to discuss his ideas seriously and I was willing to give him the space to do so and to offer criticism where applicable, so my complaints there doesnt apply here.

So now looking back you can see I had a more accurate read on the situation.

[shosta]

Holy crap, I forgot that we've already been here with Leadbelly, the furtive pygmy, so easily forgotten.

http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=45437.msg2429400#msg2429400

Shame on Mandark for not activating his photographic memory and linking us back to his posts from a year ago, and instead using it to besmirch me, an innocent bystander.

[Momo]

Originally when I complained, etoilet seemed to want to discuss his ideas seriously and I was willing to give him the space to do so and to offer criticism where applicable, so my complaints there doesnt apply here.

So now looking back you can see I had a more accurate read on the situation.

for sure.

I think leadbelly deserves more though, probably chose the wrong thread to try and engage in, but I dont think it goes better anywhere else, although I wish it did and we'd give each other the benefit that years of posting along side each other gives.

[Mandark]

Honestly, I don't think that knowing someone for a long time means you need to consider their ideas more seriously (especially if they have a track record of dopey ideas), or that you necessarily need to handle them with kid gloves.

Kosma's been around forever and is part of the social fabric here, but we were all able to be pretty direct in telling him he was acting a fool in that Roman Polanski thread. I think the results were both better and funnier because of it.

[Momo]

Eh, but he doesnt ever engage seriously lol
 

Honestly, I don't think that knowing someone for a long time means you need to consider their ideas more seriously (especially if they have a track record of dopey ideas), or that you necessarily need to handle them with kid gloves.

Depends, I don't think he's coming from a disingenuous place, which is why it's worth having him explain further without sending him to the defensive place from the start. I'm always curious when people who have similar beliefs to me come to different conclusions, I feel there's an opportunity to learn or teach. 

[Momo]

I can't wait till Mandark unveils his own problematic opinion so we can all dogpile him.

Like I dunno, if he was like a massive fan of Jane Austen or something.

I'd be in here trying to hold back the flood for Mandark too 

[Mandark]

I don't think he's coming from a disingenuous place

he is

[curly]

don't make the mistake of thinking I want to discuss bullshit like this seriously

my philosophy towards all leadbelly posts

[Oblivion]

Shos, I gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed with you. I totally expect someone like etiloiate to dismiss such an article, but not you.

Then you've misread me completely. I side with etiolate most of the time he posts.

oh my god

yeah, you were pretty awful, my dude. but i'm glad you (unwillingly) stopped hanging out with a bad crowd

[Oblivion]

if etoilet were still around, shosta would be a beta tester for thinkspot right about now

[shosta]

That's not true. I started defecting from et around the beginning of May and, while I don't want to overstate my role here, I'm pretty sure him losing his only toady in that thread tilted him right over the edge just two weeks later.

[Mandark]

shosta is proof that being relentlessly sassed by me builds character

[Momo]

shosta is proof that being relentlessly sassed by me builds character

well, then you have to take responsibility for Kosma too 

[BIONIC]

ok leadbelly... I have made a checklist of statements pertaining to issues both modern and historical and I'd like you to list either "agree" or "disagree" next to each one, with an optional ONE sentence of clarification (please use very sparingly). Within each section, I've tried to keep the point of view consistent. Here they are:

[public spending]
- If you earn more, you should pay more in taxes.
- The rich are not taxed highly enough in my country.
- It's shameful that people are allowed to make money simply by virtue of having wealth (stocks, rent, loans).
- Universal healthcare is a good idea.
- We should never privatize education.
- Higher education should be free, just like primary and secondary education are.

[identity issues]
- Racism is alive and well in my country.
- Systemic racism contributes to the continued oppression of racial minorities.
- Undocumented immigrants who have been living in my country should have some kind of legal status.
- Gender is a social construct and people should be free to identify as male or female.
- Human sexual preference is mostly biologically determined.
- Gay marriage should be legal.
- You should not be able to discriminate against someone on the basis of their sexual preference.
- Ditto, but for sexual identity.
- Ditto, but for race or gender.

[women's rights]
- Women have just as much of a right as men to be in the workplace.
- Contraception and abortion procedures should be legal (up to the third trimester).
- Abortion should be legal even in the third trimester.
- The cost of childcare is a major barrier for women to enter the workforce. We need public daycare or daycare vouchers.
- #MeToo is an important cultural movement.

[islam]
- People from majority muslim countries often have certain values which are fundamentally incompatible with western values.
- The refugee crisis in Europe is doing long-term damage to European society.
- Liberals are too quick to stand up for refugees from war-torn countries.
- We do not have a responsibility for fixing these countries or taking their needy.
- Christopher Hitchens was a brilliant debater.

[economy]
- Unions are, for the most part, a good idea.
- Laws that forbid workplaces from forcing employees to join unions are anti-union and should be opposed. [this used to say "Right to Work", which means something different in the UK, sorry]
- The government should provide a federal job guarantee because there is so much unemployment and so much infrastructure and community work that needs to be done.
- BREXIT is not a good idea.
- Free trade is generally good.
- CEOs make way too much money for what they actually do (nothing).

[climate]
- Climate change is real and anthropogenic.
- We should fund green technology.
- We should mobilize the nation to reduce our carbon output by a certain amount by a certain date.
- We should help depopulate Bangladesh into surrounding areas because it's going to be underwater and it's our fault.

[war and peace]
- My country should not sign a no-first-use promise for the use of nuclear weapons (my country should never use nuclear weapons first).
- My country's military protects my freedom.
- Saddam Hussein had to be deposed.
- If my country leaves Afghanistan, the Taliban will come back and my country will be at risk again.
- China is a threat to global peace.
- The US military should stay in South Korea.
- The US should overthrow the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.
- My country should maintain its current level of defense spending.

[general liberal issues]
- My country puts far too many people in jail.
- Flagburning is a right.
- The death penalty is wrong and should be abolished.
- Irrespective of Israel's right to defend itself from terrorism, Palestine is illegally occupied.
- The sanctions on Venezuela are needlessly compounding its economic crisis.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[scientific socialism]
- The industrial processes, especially supply chains with numerous levels of intermediate goods, are becoming increasingly more centrally planned by the firm owners, even and especially when these supply chains span multiple continents. This contradiction within the modern free market economy is empirical evidence that central planning by bureaucratic authorities in the age of computation is a perfectly efficient method of allocating resources.

- Work by economists like Hyman Minsky, Thomas Piketty, and Steve Keen, show rigorously that the existence of a privately owned finance sector produces a structurally unstable economy that is bound to produce serious economic crashes and exponentially greater inequality that is fundamentally inconsistent with democratic values. The nation's largest capital reserves must be publicly owned, from now until forever.

- When a large firm takes one component of its supply chain and moves it overseas from a developed nation to an underdeveloped one, with no change in the skillset of its labor or the efficiency of its capital, but the price of the intermediate good is still reduced by an order of magnitude, this is a deliberate act of exploitation which produces superprofits for the firm and/or superprofits for the consumer in the developed nation (and this surplus is then circulated through the rest of the economy, arbitrarily inflating its standard of living). Third world factory workers must unionize and reverse this "free trade" theft of wealth.

- The media is owned by major financial firms and operated by ruling elites and thus will always filter or distort news to serve its own interests. The public and labor must therefore own an alternative media.

- Post-USSR globalism has made income inequality even worse, both between nations, and within each nation.

- These and other contradictions will eventually lead to the end of capitalism itself.

[close]

Get a job, you dumb bitch.

[Great Rumbler]

I finally got to the part in the thread where Etiolate flips out and posts pictures of starving kids. What a legendary thread.

Etiolate always reminded people what an incredible intellectual he was and how he was so much better than everyone here, yet he ended up getting triggered off the face of the planet by Mandark, benji and Teen Vogue. And he was still triggered two days later after coming back from his first ban.

 

[Van Cruncheon]

Forget what my intentions are. What you should be concerned with is, is there merit to my argument.

you reiterate this belief a lot but it's wrong and you probably don't even believe it

Yeah. I recall going through this with you before. There seems to be a bit of a blind spot there. I find it hard to understand why there is disagreement there.

If a serial killer said the sky is blue, it doesn't mean he must be wrong because he is a serial killer. The sky is blue.

Look it is not up to me whether you agree or disagree, it is up to you. And ultimately you either see logic in an argument or you do not. What you shouldn't be doing however is looking for ways to disagree simply because of a person's political leanings or whatever.

And I genuinely believe it because I realised it is actully beneficial to do this for my own intellectual development. It does me no good in the long run to hold to falsehoods. But it is hard to see that sometimes. And we're all ultimately biased creatures which includes myself. It is hard to get around that. When you listen to someone you fundamentally diagree with it is hard to listen. What you tend to do is find ways to dismiss them. Lets say one thing they say is inaccurate. That's enough for us to dismiss everything they say. Because we don't like what they have to say to begin with.

Again though, it's when you realise it is not actually beneficial to yourself that things seem to click. Not that you will be rid of all bias, but probably more aware of you're own infallibility on that matter.

you gotta admit, ted bundy had great hair

[agrajag]

tbh Momo, it's pretty disingenuous to say we are "just looking for enemies" when people routinely pop in here to defend the likes of Alex Jones and other chuds. But yeah, everyone totally has the same views about everything.

[agrajag]

Fuck you Mandark, I'm mad all over again

IIRC I was going off your "people gotta chill, whipping your dick out in public is fine" stance from the #metoo thread.

omg, did I defend some people in the #metoo thread?

Don't you dare dig up receipts. I don't want to see them.

you seem malleable as fuck, I hope you never get approached by some cult like Tyler did

[Leadbelly]

The idea that I am being disingenious is the most ridiculous bullshit take on things of them all. Why waste my time engaging with you at all?

I mean what the fuck do you think I would get out of that? I am on some secret covert mission or something to convert you to conservatism? This is as bad as ERA seriously. I

Okay, Momo was right, you shouldn't engage with people in here, because they can't thnk outside of their own bubble. And you really can't. Like for instance the nonsense about the term far-right. And I am thinking maybe you don't understand that point because of the Eurocentric angle of it that you may not be aware of. I also think you're not trying to understand. And that is the thing.

We are in a time now in Europe where the public are on the move politically. More people are moving to the right. Right wing populism hasn't won, but it is clear it has made huge gains. There has been a trend however to just label these groups far-right. And in turn what happens is the issues that are the reason the public are on the move are not adequately being addressed. I am of the opinion that is dangerous.

I also linked a video which I guess did not get listened to, or wasn't taken seriously. Either way all I really wanted you to acknowledge was that there is a sense of logic in what is being said. What it is not for instance, is some secret covert plan to water down the term far-right so that I can express my real views in public. And now I am starting to believe that is something you people believe.

There is a sense of logic in that video. However, it is Eurocentric which is why I explained that.


People say I am being defensive, which I am. When people post in a way that can be perceived as an attack, people post defensively. However, what I am made aware of now, is in fact you are all posting defensively. Which is why you respond to me the way you do. You can't get over your own bias enough to actually genuinely engage.

So I will leave you to it in this thread.

[Oblivion]

That's not true. I started defecting from et around the beginning of May and, while I don't want to overstate my role here, I'm pretty sure him losing his only toady in that thread tilted him right over the edge just two weeks later.

i'm actually curious. at what point did you realize etoilet wasn''t a good role model anymore?

[benjipwns]

you seem malleable as fuck, I hope you never get approached by some cult like Tyler did

he already registered as a member of the Libertarian Party breh

[team filler]

 

[Leadbelly]

Well, considering you can't really engage properly with ideas you don't agree with, which you can't, as you have made me aware in this last page, maybe he flipped out because of that. Not something I would do, but fuck me.

[BisMarckie]

#free etiolate

He provided us with hours of entertainment for free

[agrajag]

I'm sort of sad I missed reactionary shosta, this is why you should never take a hiatus from the bore

Keep in mind, this was after he built up his reputation as "Kristoffer the one non-reactionary and even-keeled Era mod."